Third lift pump failure in 186,000 miles!

[Sequoyah101]

I am certain that there have been many postings on this subject over the years. I have not read them here but some on Youtube and Geno's summaries of TDR postings. I also posted this topic / question over on the Cummins Forum.

What I hope to learn is why am I having so many failures ever more frequently and what is the best solution to this problem. Money is almost no object in finding the right solution. I'm pretty miffed.

I'll try to be concise hope my story helps someone else feel not so singled out for this failure and help find a way to better reliability. What I'd really like to know is why, in 186,000 miles I have had three lift pump failure? After being stranded on the side of the road yesterday with a trailer and $391 to the towing company to bring me, my wife and my truck home from 60 miles away I am looking for the best most reliable solution I can find to this lift pump problem. It is a bunch of crap. The tow truck driver said the three most common Dodge Cummins failures are Lift Pump, Water Pump and Ball Joints.

I figure to get rid of the intank pump and do something that I can replace at the side of the road when I carry a spare pump. Is this the best thing to do and what is the best way to accomplish it and with what pump?

I have an '04 ISB305 made in September of '03 and installed in the truck in October of that same year at the factory. I bought the truck new in November of '03 and it remains bone stock save for this lift pump stuff. I had a factory fuel filter mounted lift pump on the truck when it was delivered.

I have been left on the side of the road now THREE times twice with my wife in the heat of summer. She was not impressed.

Failure 1, 111,000 miles 111,000 miles to failure, 12-27-09, $956.00, Dodge Dealer replaced original on fuel filter pump with Dodge in tank pump. I really wish they had not done me that favor. Supposedly Dodge did not offer the original external pump on the fuel filter.

Failure 2, 152,000 miles, 41,000 miles to failure, 5-15-16, over $1,000, Dodge Dealer replaced retrofit intank pump with another one just like it. The intank pump is more reliable? Really? It lasted less than half as long as the original fuel filter mounted external pump.

Failure 3, 186,000 miles, 34,000 miles to failure, 6-26-21, $391 for towing 60 miles to home, my trailer is still stranded in a stranger's yard with the load still on it, pump not yet replaced but you can bet it won't be with the Dodge intank crap.

I'm going to suck all the fuel out of the tank and polish it with a little filter unit I built with two Racor filters on it. I have NEVER found any water in the filter on the truck.

The first failure I was literally chasing a needed ambulance that flew past our address, the second time was pulling a stock trailer 50 miles away from home and the third time was pulling a 16' pipe top 60 miles from home. I'm damn tired of this problem.

Looking for a better solution.

 

[Wiredawg]

Might be time for a FASS or Air Dog and be done with it. I did that upgrade on my 02 and 03. Bought a Fass Platinum for my 09 4500, but never took it out of the box. Still have it if interested.

Cheers, Ron

 

[Sequoyah101]

Yes, thanks.

It is sure time for some kind of change since all I have now is a 7 or 8,000 lb yard ornament parked outside the barn. It is deader than a hammer.

Did you still have the original pump or had dodge made the intank mod for you already when you replaced?

I figure to call Fass tomorrow and see what they have in the way of suck tube and fuel sender to replace the crap that dodge has put in my tank. I don't plan on using any hole saws to put bungs with suction tubes in the tank though. Got to be much better solutions than that.

When it stops raining I'll take the bed off and roll what is left into the shop for surgery.

 

[AH64ID]

The intank pump is a reliable unit, even more so than FASS or AD. When someone says they want the most reliable pump on stock fuel demands the answer is the OEM in-tank unit, every time. @Ltngdrvr has nearly 600K miles on his.

They are the longest lasting pump I know of. The main reason to go to a bigger external pump is for either more pressure or more flow.

So time to find out why they are failing.

I would check wiring for an excessive voltage drop, and I would check the in-tank basket for any flow blockage or something else causing either cavitation or another reason for the pump to run hot.

Where do you live?

 

[Sequoyah101]

Most of the truck's life was on the Texas Gulf Coast near Houston which is why I suspected water in the tank and checked it often and will now suck the tank dry with the filter unit. It now lives in East Central Oklahoma with dry winters and humid summers.

Perhaps wiring, there are no coincidences. Chronic failures happen for a reason. I'll check the voltage if I can find all the wires. I suppose once I get the bed off and access the pump harness I can see what I have at that junction. Need to get the bed off. After nearly 7 decades of crawling under crap I'm not as spry for such as once upon a time!

I'm snake bit on the in tank system and frustrated at not being able to touch the thing without dropping the tank or taking the bed off. As you can see, I'm not doing well at all on reliability and it is getting worse not at all living up to the reputation you suggest for the in tank unit!

I tend to stick to bone stock since I figure the engineers who deal with this stuff all the time may know better than others but in this case I think they goofed as a general design is concerned.

 

[AH64ID]

Check the connections where the harness had to be extended.

It also might be easier to drop the tank instead of lift the bed.

Does the truck sit slot? Do you run low on fuel often?

I tend to stick to bone stock since I figure the engineers who deal with this stuff all the time may know better than others but in this case I think they goofed as a general design is concerned.

Well factory pump you had was phased out of the 3rd Gen after 2 model years, but the in-tank pump is still being used on its 17th model year in a row so my vote is that you have something else wrong causing the pump failure and it’s not the pumps fault. That or you just have some bad luck.

 

[Sequoyah101]

Some don't call me Eeoyre for nothing.

Sits a lot now, I seldom drive 6,000 miles a year anymore but I keep the tank full for just that reason and always have, never letting it sit with the tank very low at all. There are months when I don't buy 10 gallons of diesel in the last four years. Prior to this pump the truck did set a lot since I had another work vehicle so the truck ran seldom and then on long trips that was the second pump.

I had thought about the connection for the retrofit as well and will check that when I do the repair. Not a lot of faith in the shop that did the original conversion.

Yes, I take your point on the persistence of the in tank installation, relative paucity of complaints here and perhaps my bad luck but I don't believe in luck when it comes to physics or mechanical things. Everything that is unusual happens for a reason and my failure rate is seemingly unusual. Can't believe I am the only person who drives his truck episodically so I suspect something else?

There always has to be a reason for things. Bad install, bad design, unusual operating conditions etc.

 

[BigPapa]

I have nothing to add except to say I’d listen to John. He knows his stuff.

 

[Ozymandias]

Search for the cause- don't cure the symptoms.

There MUST be a cause why your pumps gail in a row that usually outlast the vehicle itself.

Electrical is good idea, also check for flow restrictions like a kinked line or something that raises pressures to unsafe levels.

You'll find something for sure as these pumps do not fail.

 

[SSage]

I have an early 2003 truck, put an AirDog 165 on it around 2005, no issues so far. It came with new fuel hoses and a draw straw. I probably should replace the hoses soon due to age! I wish it produced less noise, but it does polish the fuel well. I don't drive it daily, just a few thousand miles per year now. But the fuel stays nice and clean, I run the Baldwin water separator with a Donaldson final filter.

Like the others have said, your problem is probably electrical. Its worth testing the voltage the pump is getting, you can also measure the amp draw to see if the pump is in spec. Its sad how rare it is to find an actual mechanic worth much, most of them are poor guessers and glorified parts changers. I wonder if the voltage at the pump was ever measured?

 

[Sequoyah101]

Sadly, I seldom hire anything done that I don't regret it in some way. Usually it is because I have to fix something done wrong. I don't mind doing new things and learning but it takes more time, sort of. Separate subject though.

 

[Wiredawg]

I can't speak to the reliability of the in-tank pumps on the 5.9L 3rd Gen trucks... I had a 3rd Gen Ram 4500 with 6.7L Cummins, never had any problems in 9years and 68K miles. I replaced the engine mounted lift pump with an Air Dog on my former 2003 Ram Cummins 2500 and its pushing 250K miles and 18 years flawlessly. As I mentioned previously, I purchased a FASS Platinum 150 for the MADS 2009 4500 set on level 5, but the in-tank kept working very well, so never installed the FASS. No plans to install it on my stock 2017 Ram 5500. Still have it new in the box.

I agree with the gallery on digging into the truck and checking electrical and fuel plumbing stem to stern for any obvious problems. Also, check the vent on the fuel tank... 2nd and 3rd Gen had problems with them pulling crap into the tanl and could be partially restricted.

I'm not sure how much help this has been. I ALWAYS purchase OEM service manual on everything I own so I can at least track and trouble shoot systems. These have become less useful over time, but better than nothing.

Did you have the other 2 pumps replaced at the same dealer? I have a great relationship with my dealer after having purchased 6 vehicles over the past 20 years. I even bring the service writers breakfast tacos Go talk to the service manager at your dealership and tell him/her the full story. Dr's and dealer service writers don't always see or look for past history in your records and just treat the symptom as a cause and not a result of something else.

Well, that's about all I can offer. Please let us know how this turns out.

Cheers, Ron

 

[mfurrh55]

205,700 miles on my 07. 5.9, no trouble with intank liftpump

 

[Smoke Eater]

The in tank pump in my 04 gave up at around 260K, I put in a FASS replacement, 485K now.
I'm suspicious of the wiring the shop that installed the first pump did. I wish I had the answer for you.

 

[Sequoyah101]

Just another jake-leg mechanic's saga.

The plot thickens. This is almost entertaining to see how fouled up the information is on this subject of pump replacement. The more I read the less I know for sure. The internet has provided us with enough information to be confused by the amount of chaff that is in the wheat, the good and bad information mixed together.

I have called a couple of tech service lines from vendors who shall remain nameless and either I am not capable of understanding or have been given bad information. I want to use a simple in-line, out of tank pump that requires no or little modification to the existing fuel lines, a suction tube that uses the existing pump module retaining the fuel level sender and uses my original fuel filter with water monitor. I just need a unit for my stock engine that still does all I expect of it an is not some 600 hp bellowing smoke spewing daemon.

I also called the local Dodge house and the service manager there was nice and even helpful but his answer to my question as to why my pumps are failing so often, if they had seen this, if there was some TSB on it and how they would diagnose the problem if they did was not useful. No idea, never saw it before, no TSB, hunt and peck at $115 per hour but ultimately would probably just replace the pump with another MOPAR in tank and hope for the best. The tech in the shop said 40,000 to 50,000 miles is not an uncommon failure point. I politely thanked him, said I would take care of it myself and might still do business with him someday for something else but not this and will not use another in tank pump.

Air Dog seems to offer the most direct and complete system for fitment to the modified '04 with in tank pump but I don't see the line in the kit to modify the existing pump module in the tank with some kind of suction tube:

https://pureflowairdog.com/i-304976...4-5-dodge-cummins-with-in-tank-fuel-pump.html

Then there is the FASS stand-alone pump option with the Vulcan Draw Straw V suction tube arrangement that apparently does not require holes in the tank.

https://www.genosgarage.com/product/vulcan-ds5/fuel-system-accessories-replacement-parts

Wire tracing today led to more confusion but I at least found out what is not the retrofit power supply for the in tank pump and what is the dealer installed fog light relay mess. I did find wiring that looks just like one of the retrofit pump kits to go to an in tank pump:

https://puredieselpower.com/dodge-p...-transfer-pump-conversion-kit-68003870ab.html

I unhooked this line from the battery, the truck still does the pressurization routine and still starts. I hooked it back up to the battery and completely took the relay off, the truck still does the pressurization routine and still starts and runs but seems rough in both cases. Is it possible for the truck to start and run without a lift pump? I seem to recall having read that it is possible somewhere. Sure would be nice to have a schematic of the retrofit wiring or even the instructions to see what makes this thing work? I did order the service manual but something tells me there is nothing on the lift pump retrofit.

Tomorrow the bed comes off and I'll find out which wire goes where but the source of power without what I think is the proper relay remains a mystery. I'm slow, I have other chores that are mandatory each day.

While the bed is off I'll take the opportunity to change out the pop-up hitch that just stays up and won't go down without a hammer and won't go up without a skyhook once down. I'll also have a look changing the rear shocks out of guilt since they are the originals. I need to do the ball joints and probably the front shocks and steering dampener.

Gauges, need to at least have a lift pump pressure gauge to monitor that and maybe a boost gauge. I consider the pyrometer optional or not needed for my application and don't want to drill my exhaust manifold though I know it is commonly done. Autometer I guess?

 

[Sequoyah101]

I too am very suspicious of the wiring since I can't seem to find that it does anything. I know it was an amateurish mess the way they used zip ties and attached it to other wiring. I tidied it up today and put what I think is the proper relay on a fixed mounting at the firewall.

When you put in the FASS did you use the wiring for the in tank pump or just start over? And. Did you use the factory filter or the FASS pair?

I really don't like the hang down filters. I don't make a habit of it but I've had the truck in mud way past the running boards and drug it out with the tractor. Other than that it gets treated well.

 

[Sequoyah101]

Something is wrong with the retrofit I think. Wiring or something. Nobody seems to know the answer.

 

[seafish]

Something is wrong with the retrofit I think. Wiring or something. Nobody seems to know the answer.

Like other memebrs have said, your successive lift pump failures of a fairly robust lift pump are most likely being caused either by bad electrical wiring (ie a broken or failing connection or wire) OR a partially clogged/dirty intake inside the tank at the pump.

If you are able to safely check BOTH voltage and current at the pump terminals at the top of the tank with the pump RUNNING you can learn much more!!!

--Lower then normal voltage or current would be indicative of a failing connection or wire somewhere between the PDC and the pump

--Higher then normal current draw would be indicative of a clogged intake.

just my .02

 

[Smoke Eater]

I installed the FASS DRP kit about 8 years ago, wired it up as per their instructions. Mine sits on the frame rail by the starter. I've thought about getting the relocation kit to move it closer to the tank, but will probably wait until I replace all of the fuel lines and put in a better filter set up. I did the draw straw, honestly don't recall much about the install anymore other than making sure to cut the straw on an angle to prevent it from sticking to the bottom of the tank when the tank is close to empty. The tank will sag a little when full, best to be empty when measuring the straw.
I looked at the FASS site, and you can download a manual for the install of the DRP. That should show you their way of wiring it up.
I've had the factory filter, but I've been planning on using the Cummins dual filter kit made by Diesel Fuel Filter Kits. It mounts inside the frame rail to the rear bolts of the driver's seat. Doesn't hang down too far.
As far as gauges go, I went with the Autometer 3rd gen factory match and am happy with the way it looks.

 

[AH64ID]

The trucks will run without a lift pump, but how well depends on how the pump failed. The pump is supposed to be a suck thru design so you can limp home, but it doesn't always fail in a manner that allows this.

Glacier Diesel makes a modified based to use OEM style pickups with an external pump.

Personally I would look at the 95 GPH version of FASS if you were to go that route. The AD's seem to have a lot more failures and their filters don't match the flow rating (neither do the filters on the 150 GPH FASS).