Here I am

Third lift pump failure in 186,000 miles!

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Sudden motor miss

New clutch slipping

And so it is intended to somehow limp home without benefit of lift pump and without damage to the high pressure pump?

Thanks.

When this job id done I'll summarize here.
 
My experience and nothing more than that just my experience, with 3 different 03 and 04 model trucks. On my 03 which I still have it has 300k miles on it, I still have the factory filter mounted lift pump and I will confirm that they last around 100k miles as I have replaced it twice and carry a spare, yes they will run without the pump working as mine have always done that and I have learned that the pump had failed when doing a filter change and it wouldn't pump to refill the filter. Now as to the 04s both original filter pumps failed during warranty and dodge put the in tank pumps in. Neither of those pumps have failed and they both have over 300k miles on them now. That being said both of them have had the inline fuse that was put in by dodge for the retro tanks to blow more than once usually when it does the truck dies. Both of these trucks were repaired by different dealer and they used the same homemade retro wiring repair. They have a wire connected directly to the battery with two female spade connectors with a fuse plugged in them. I have always said I should fix them but never have. The rest of the wiring on it is just as bad seems like they even have scotch lock connections in it. I would completely replace the wires to your pump and up the size of the wire.
 
That is a really good data point. My on filter pump lasted 111,000 miles. The cobbled up wiring is the problem to the tank mounted retrofit and is most likely unlike the OEM in tank wiring. Without benefit of the schematic I think the retrofit wiring goes something like this:

The short run OEM wiring from the ECM to the on filter pump was able to manage without too much voltage drop but still, i suspect the pump starved for juice but not enough to cause failure UNLESS the connector got dirty or was not making good contact. Notice that the connector from the ECM to the original pump and now to the retrofit wiring harness is a square fitting without benefit of being water or weather sealed like the ones with the three rubber seals. Connectors in wiring are like bends and valves in piping, they create resistance and V still equals IR. When they are dirty, or not making good contact or corroded they have more resistance. Like a corroded flashlight battery. In low voltage systems there is not enough pressure / voltage to power through that resistance point.

In the retrofit they knew the connector to the original pump from the ECM was not enough to make it all the way back to the tank without unacceptable voltage drop, they probably also knew that they had a voltage drop problem causing premature failure of the filter mounted pump, so they had to rob some power somehow from somewhere else while still using the lead from the ECM to get the precharge and run timing coordinated by the ECM.

What I suspect they really should have done that would have been much simpler would have been to increase the size of the wiring to the filter mounted pump. Instead, to standardize parts count they went to a field retrofit using the existing wiring not understanding it is prone to install errors. I suspect this is why the new in tank pumps last a long time and the retrofit pumps don't. They executed a cobbled up patch instead of a fix. That hardly ever works out well. It is equivalent to patching potholes when the real problem is water intrusion and failure of the subbase.

What they did is to put a relay in the line that would add juice to the system at an intermediate point to aid the transmission of enough current at the right voltage back to the in tank pump.

The line from the ECM energizes the relay taking juice from the battery but also sends the same current from the ECM IN ADDITION to the current from the battery on down the line to the in tank pump. This is the reason the pump will run with the battery disconnected and with the fuse out of the line to the relay and with the relay completely disconnected. However, in that condition the pump operates at low voltage or low amperage taking power only directly from the ECM but leads to its early demise.

My theory is that in some retrofit installations they have gotten it wrong when it comes to the modification of the 14 pin connector behind the driver's side fender liner near the floor board. Not sure what they get wrong but I suspect the added power from the battery is not all making it to the pump in the tank.

That is my theory that remains to be somehow proven. I think it has to do with the wiring of the retrofit and low voltage.

Not knowing how your two retrofit pumps are wired in I can only guess but I guess that the reason your fuse blows is that they are sending all the current to the pump from the battery switched by a relay signaled by the ECM outlet that once went to the filter mounted pump. All that current on a small existing wire going back to the tank is causing an overheat and blowing the fuse.

The wires to the tank need to be bigger!!!!
 
It appears they will run a lot without a lift pump. More conjecture as to why I have made it so long, I hardly ever let the tank get more than 1/8 down, 7/8 fuel remaining, this would put the fuel level near to the elevation of the high pressure injection pump. When everything quit last week it was on a long trip and the fule level dropped below 1/2 tank for the first time in a very long time.

This saga is ending for now soon and I'll be back up and running with a little help fro all of the above.
 
Our 6.7L Cummins school buses don't have a lift pump. They depend totally on the gear pump on the back of the CP-3, #400 in this diagram. Does the Dodge CP-3 have this gear pump on theirs?

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Yep thats the same pump. Dmax did not use a lift pump either. Not sure why Ram felt the need to.
 
Yep thats the same pump. Dmax did not use a lift pump either. Not sure why Ram felt the need to.

Because of the starting procedure if you run out of fuel.
Without a lift pump the only way to accomplish it is by cranking the engine for sometimes several minutes. Mercedes had that in their first CRD engines and massive problems with seized CP3 and burnt up starters, so the next series came with a lift pump.
And back then we have been Daimler-Chrysler so they didn't want to repeat these faults with the RAM. Good for us.
 
And there is your answer as to why there is a lift pump for the CP-3po pump even thought it seems you don't need it.... sometimes.

I finally made up my mind about what to do today after much indecision.

I have ordered a FASS 80 gpm DRP-4 and Vulcan Draw Straw V PLUS a second FASS pump as a carry spare from Geno's. I'll buy and put the right few tools needed to swap pumps in the box and forget them until needed.

Every time I look at my poor truck with the bed off I don't want to see that again. Yeah, I know you can just raise one side but I figured to clean up and maybe do some other things if needed with the bed off.

The only good thing so far from this exercise is that I did get the Pop-up ball gooseneck hitch freed up and functional.... for now. Dirt and even a little corrosion are not the friend of those things. I can't recommend them. It is a lot easier to crawl up in the back of the truck to configure the turn over ball hitch than it is to crawl under the truck to get the Pop-up cam feed up to raise or lower the ball.

Scarlett may have said she would never be hungry again and I hope not to be stuck on the roadside waiting on a tow truck trying to figure out what to do with my trailer and contents again.... at least I won't because of a failed lift pump. It is most likely that I will never take the spare out of the box. I hope that is the case. Something else may strand me though.

I don't need the high capacity pumps for a stock engine that does all I ask of it already. I am now looking for the right gauge set. I just want two, a lift pressure gauge and a turbo boost pressure piller mounted. At least one of these is a health monitor of something I'm really interested in. Not really sure about what to do with the turbo boost information other than "Gee Whiz!" and it is only $90 bucks. I don't like the garish neon colors and like the OEM look so probably Autometer. How are they dimmable? I'd go red light if I already had it and instead I'll just do like I always have and dim the dash lights to just visible at night. Those gauges up in my field of vision need to go waaay dim.

We had a saying in the oilfield and out on a drill ship: "Two is one and one is none." It can be awfully hard to be that prepared all the time in managing risk.
 
Hopefully it works well for you.

I’d look into isspro gauges. They have ones that match the OEM dash.

Personally I’ve never liked autometer, but they have worked well for many.
 
I'll consider that. Thanks.

I'm ignorant on a lot of things and on this list is the purpose of the turbo boost and then need for that. EGT I understand but doubt I will or have ever gotten into that realm of concern very much or very long.

So, besides the condition of the turbo and how hard the engine may be working, what does turbo boost tell you?
 
Because of the starting procedure if you run out of fuel.
Without a lift pump the only way to accomplish it is by cranking the engine for sometimes several minutes. Mercedes had that in their first CRD engines and massive problems with seized CP3 and burnt up starters, so the next series came with a lift pump.
And back then we have been Daimler-Chrysler so they didn't want to repeat these faults with the RAM. Good for us.

The Duramax has a small primer bulb on the filter assy with a bleeder. I stopped and helped a guy a few years ago that had run out of fuel. He did not know how to prime his system and killed his batteries cranking. I threw my jumpers on, showed him how to prime and bleed and had it going in a matter of minutes. Its even easier doing a filter change where you don't run the system dry and end up with a bunch of air in the lines. The lack of a lift pump has never been an issue at all for them.
 
I’ll second the Isspro gauges. I put Isspro in my ‘95 but my ‘98 had Autometer in it when I bought it. I’d much rather have the Isspro’s.
 
Instead of a draw straw that leaves you stranded at a 1/4 Tank I'd highly suggest to use the right in-tank pick up unit.
The one that your truck came with from factory, it is still available. And yes costs a couple dollars but it is the right way to do it.
 
Instead of a draw straw that leaves you stranded at a 1/4 Tank I'd highly suggest to use the right in-tank pick up unit.
The one that your truck came with from factory, it is still available. And yes costs a couple dollars but it is the right way to do it.

The draw straw V should be the one that replaces the pump with the pickup so the OEM module remains and it doesn’t have the 1/4 tank issues.
 
Exactly, the straw V has a nice big aluminum klunk on it that goes in the basket where the tank pump sucks from and so should work fine for suction. At the end of the day, between maintenance, reliability and access it is less reliability and more the other two items that I expect. Indeed pumps push better than they suck but this really has not to do much of either so it should work just fine withe the external pump as it has done for so many others.
 
OK, so here is the $64,000 question: Does anyone actually know the Mean Time Between Failures (MTBF) for these lift pumps?

Surely there is some Dodge or Cummins boffin that monitors these types of forum who actually knows the answer to this question.

Instead of lurking on the sidelines and laughing at all we consumers pattering on about how long our pump lasted and what we did, fess up and tell us what we should statistically expect in lift pump life.
 
12.38 V no load measured at pump
11.4 V with pump running measured at pump
Nearly 1 V drop, almost 10%. If it were AC that would be unacceptable as 5% is the conventional limit. I finally found a recommendation of not less than 3% for 12 V automotive systems. We are way over that in this case.

Again, measuring the unloaded voltage at the point of use only indicates that the switch is on. It does not indicate if there is enough current to operate the appliance without over heating.

Bigger wires will be installed to the new pump and the old pump is going away.
 
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