Thoughts on VP44 handling ATF cut with RUG

[Sojourner]

Opinions please on whether or not a VP44 would be damaged by pumping ATF cut with RUG to achieve a viscosity equivalent to #2.



TIA

 

[boydo]

Not sure if I follow you, but you shouldn't add ATF to any diesel, remember ATF has fiction modifiers.

 

[rweis]

The tolerances in the VP44 approach 1 um - 2 um in some areas. Not much room to mess with. I would tend to say no.



I see cooling differences when my VP44 fuel input temperatures go much over 100*. I think that we just have a very very narrow range pump and should treat it as so. If we keep the VP44 functioning in the range it was designed I think it will be fine. Much outside of that range it tends to fail.



Bob Weis

 

[Sojourner]

Not sure if I follow you, but you shouldn't add ATF to any diesel, remember ATF has fiction modifiers.

I know of some Ferd guys locally (mechanics at the Ferd house) who are running 80% ATF/20% diesel in their late model Ferd diesels (when pulling they run 50/50). I'm in the process of tracking them down and talking to them about their experience.

Please pardon my ignorance, but how would friction modifiers have an adverse effect on a diesel engine?

Of course I'm hesitant to pump ATF/RUG through my VP44, but my '94 CTD is a prime candidate for this (with additional inline filters of course).

 

[boydo]

There are additives in ATF to increase friction, since fiction makes auto transmission work. I would say that anything that increases fiction should not go through a injection pump nor an injector. Everyone I know that thinks ATF the best thing to add to a VP has replaced more than one pump and many sets of failed injectors, sure things break but the commmon denominator was ATF in this case. I'm not saying don't use it, but why would you? There are far better additives to add that don't increase fiction. Just my $0. 02.

 

[Sojourner]

An additive such as Diesel Kleen could be thrown into the blend.



I'm already using Diesel Kleen or DF Supplement at the rate of one pint per ~30 gallons of diesel.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

There have been a couple of posts recently on whether it is OK to run XX fuel in a VP44 pump... from Biodeisel to waste motor oil. I would recommend you stick with regular diesel fuel with that pump. The VP44 has proven itself to be the least reliable pump in the modern diesel industry. You couldn't buy a worse pump regardless of how much money you wanted to spend. Using a fuel other than what was designed for it will definitely not make it live longer, and will probably shorten its life. If you think the tradeoff between a cheaper fuel and probable decreased pump life is worth it(and it might be), then give it a try.

I'd recommend running it in the 12V instead.

Joe

 

[SHobbs]

Using a fuel other than what was designed for it will definitely not make it live longer, and will probably shorten its life. If you think the tradeoff between a cheaper fuel and probable decreased pump life is worth it(and it might be), then give it a try.

I'd recommend running it in the 12V instead.

Joe

I have to disagree. If using B100 whether soy based or in my case cottonseed oil which has more lubrictiy than #2 and meets the same ASTM specs where's the harm? We have all said that lubrication, constant reliabe pressure and clean fuel are vital to the life of the VP44 for longevity durability. Would'nt a slicker fuel make the VP44 work easier and stay cooler thus leading to a longer life.

 

[rweis]

There was a thread on 3rd gen (CR) that the Bxxx molecule broke down under the higher pressures of the CR. I do not remember if it also did in 2nd gens.



I find it amusing that at first (several years ago) Bosch said ZERO anything but diesel. Then it was ok for B05 BUT NO HIGHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then it seems to be ok for B20 BUT NO HIGHER !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



I think there is a trend developing here. True the ASTM standards are getting better defined and the supply of bio fuel is getting more institutionized and more standardized. Maybe Bosch is getting more comfortable with the idea, who knows.



The bio-guys are experimenting just like us temp guys are experimenting. Since I can run what I want in mine, I say GO AHEAD, the worst is you blow the Vp44. It almost seems like it is disposable anyway every xxx,xxx miles.



Of course there concept of independence from non renewable sources makes the bio argument even more compelling. All I can say is I will stick with what I want and maybe slowly saddle up to more and more renewable fuel as the years go on and the VP44 reliability with them is proven or not proven.



You can always P pump it and run whatever you can pour.



Bob Weis

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Hi Bob, I missed the 3rd Gen Thread on Bio breaking down at high pressures, but it's been discussed before on the regular biodiesel boards. Cummins, Bosch and others have addressed the issue by stating that they have never witnessed it. I don't know where it started, but if anyone is claiming it as fact I'd really like to see where they got their info. When NREL did some Biodiesel testing in HPCR pumps, where the fuel eventually and separated into layers, they found it was caused by the fuel being oxidized. The fuel failed after 5 hours of circulation through the pump. This is not how normal Biodiesel acts. see http://www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/npbf/pdfs/39130.pdf



SHObbs, You're right about the lubricity. It should help the VP44, but what about the higher pressures observed with Biodiesel. Bio has a higher bulk modulus(it is less elastic at injection pressures) and can cause higher loads on the mechanical injection components. Theoretically this can shorten pump life, just like added lubricity can theoretically increase pump life. But... as Bob says. . what's the worst that can happen? The pump fails? It's going to do that regardless of what fuel you run in it.

Joe

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

The VP44 has proven itself to be the least reliable pump in the modern diesel industry. You couldn't buy a worse pump regardless of how much money you wanted to spend. Using a fuel other than what was designed for it will definitely not make it live longer, and will probably shorten its life. Joe

Not trying to argue here but my VP-44 has 172,610 miles on it which is actually an understatement because I've had oversized tires on since 50,000 miles so it's more like 180-185,000 miles.



I've dumped some used motor oil in there, turkey fryer oil, Jet-A, fresh oil, etc, not alot of these things but a bit. I've used an additive for most of the last 80,000 miles but just very on and off for the first 80,000.



My pump wire has been pierced since 42,000 miles and I've had bigger injectors for quite some time also.



Now my 93 never had anything but good ole low sulphur #2 put in the tank and that injection pump died at 120,000. Now I know that is rare just like a VP going to 172,000+ but in my case I feel the VP is more reliable



With that out of the way, I don't think I would dump ATF in the tank but that's just me

 

[SHobbs]

Joe,

That's what I am concerned about right now. My bio supplier switched from soybean oil to cottonseed oil trying to get a cheaper price. Cottonseed oil is heavier than soybean oil, not to mention it's alot darker and makes a fuel filter look really bad. Not really sure how things are gonna handle it, so far things are ok and the truck seems to run a little stronger on cottonseed than soybean.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

SHobbs,

Although there are certainly differences in Biodiesel made from different oils, from oxidative stability to cloud point, I don't ever remember seeing any changes in viscosity of the end product. I don't think I'd worry too much about the difference between the two. The color definitely does vary though, doesn't it?

Turbo Tim!,

Good to hear from you again, and really glad to hear you've got a VP with that kind of mileage. It helps restore my faith in them. . but I'd still feel uneasy about owning one. Hope you're doing well.



Joe

 

[Nate]

What is "RUG"?

 

[tgordon]

given the current price of RUG and ATF, I'm sorry but I fail to see why you would want to run them rather than #1 or #2? With the new ultra low I will always put something into it for lubricity, I don't care what the oil company says. The shop that does our injector work said they have started seeing signs at BP stations recomending it, along with an increase in business repairing pump failures due to poor lubricity.



Troy

 

[SHobbs]

SHobbs,

I don't think I'd worry too much about the difference between the two. The color definitely does vary though, doesn't it?



Joe

Joe,

The color does vary greatly. Soybean oil is a light amber color like weak tea, cottonseed oil is a dark color, like very dark amber almost coffee like. After 1 tank the fuel filter looks like it has been in there for thousands of miles. Fuel pressure has dropped about 2psi at idle compared to soybean oil until the fuel warms up with the warm fuel going back to the tank through the return line then it goes back to normal. Kinda funny but, this stuff gets thick sitting overnight or few hours. I will be doing the Vulcan big straw soon as well as moving the L. P back to the tank which should help the pressures some.

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Well if you're seeing pressure changes like that then obviously there is a viscosity difference in the fuels. That surprises me. Maybe you should drop a couple of gallons of diesel fuel in there to return the viscosity to the previous levels.

Joe

 

[SHobbs]

Joe,

I'm not too worried just yet, like I said once the truck warms up everything returns back to normal. When I start it in the a. m pressures are a little low but, not low enough to cause problems. After a few miles all is up to normal. not sure if it's viscocity levels, cottonseed oil is a little heavier and somewhat thicker than soybean oil. Seems to flow better when warm than cold, good thing I never tried to run it in the cooler months it would be like pumping honey, lol. I was told that cottonseed oil does have a higher BTU count than soybean, still checking into that. My supplier is trying to get canlola oil he said that canola runs and performs great.

 

[AKaiser]

Not sure if I follow you, but you shouldn't add ATF to any diesel, remember ATF has fiction modifiers.

Can you make enough modifications to ATF (like Lucas Oil Treatment) that the fiction becomes non-fiction? :-laf

 

[SAndreasen]

doesent the atf also have to lubricate bearings and gears also ? so would the friction modifiers be harmful to the transmission as well ?