Timing / Duration (Box) question...

[DaveMorris]

OK I want to know which most effects HP, and which most effects TQ?



I figure that Duration = Torque, and Timing = HP.....



Is this true for the most part?



I am tring to find a "simple box" that has numbers compairable to my EZ but I want it to be adjustable. I picked up a Ramifier, but I am not sure it is what I was looking for. I like the looks of the Xillaraider but I am not real excited about the lower TQ numbers it puts out (compaired to the EZ)... . I don't even know what the TQ numbers are on the Ramifier, I was going to find out saturday on the Dyno, but one of these torque monsters broke it half way thru the day.



So I guess I want to figure out what I need to do to get to the area of 70-100 hp and 225 tq (but adjustable)... .



Last note, I like what the Bully dog programmer does but don't like the idea of over writing the factory programming so that one is kind of out of the question.



This is for a 305/555



thanks in advance,

Dave

 

[jwilliams3]

TST makes a nice box, and can be run safely on the 1st 4 levels.



That would give you the amount of smooth power you are looking for.

 

[Jengle]

I'll second the TST. I have it on my 305/555. I can only run it on level 5x5 or maybe 6x5 now, since I run out of fuel above that. Once I add a pump, I will be able to get more out of it. Last dyno, I ran it at 7x7, since the operator said it wouldn't run out of fuel on a short run like that. He was right. I got 425/841 out of it. Maybe a little more than what you are looking for, but it is adjustable from the cab and you can adjust torque independently from HP. From what I understand of the box, torque is set at lower rpms, from off idle to about 1600-1700, where HP settings take effect from 1800-redline. I can set the torque on the box up high, with HP down to 0 and feel the fall off of power when it hits about 1700rpm. If I reverse them, and set torque to 0 and HP up to 5-6, I can feel the power come on at about 1600 rpm and hold to redline. Most of the time I run TQ at 3 and HP at 4, since that seems to add a couple of MPG to my average for mixed driving. Talk to Tomeygun about taking a test drive in his truck, he has this box, and you are both in STL area.

 

[ThomasLawrence]

I figure that Duration = Torque, and Timing = HP.....

<SIGH>

I partly blame Mark @ TST for this, since he decided to call his box's settings "power" and "torque". (It's all your fault, Mark!! )



You can't separate torque and HP - they're two parts of the same equation. Increase torque, you increase HP (at that particular RPM). Increase your HP, the torque at that RPM goes up, as well.



Duration increases the amount of fuel delivered into the cylinder, resulting in a bigger bang, resulting in more torque delivered to the crankshaft. Since the crankshaft is moving, it's doing work, and HP is produced.



Timing advances the injection event, making it happen earlier, which starts the combustion sooner, increasing combustion chamber pressure (and providing more time for the fuel to be delivered), with similar results (more torque, which means more HP).



The "torque" and "power" settings of the TST box are more appropriately called "low-RPM fueling" and "high-RPM fueling". The TE setting adjusts the amount of fuel delivered between about 1200RPM and 1600RPM (the older program would begin fueling at 800RPM, be all-in at 1200RPM, sustain that to 1600RPM, then fall off to 0 at 2900RPM). The power setting adjusts the amount of fuel delivered between about 1600RPM and 2900RPM (again, the older program would start increasing fueling at 1600RPM, and be all-in by 2900RPM).



Jengle - the TST on power level 0 is completely stock, regardless of what you have the TE set to. The TST on power level 1 is a timing-advance only, no extra fuel (again, regardless of what you have the TE set to). If you want more low-RPM fueling, governed by the TE setting, you must run at least power level 2. At least this is the way it used to be. I doubt TST would have changed this aspect of their box in their newer programming - I believe they just altered the RPM limits of what I described above - ie. maybe not reaching full TE-governed fueling until 1600RPM, or so)



-Tom

 

[DaveMorris]

thanks guys, the TST is a great box I have had my eye on one of those for a while. The only thing I don't really like about it is the look of the control and the time it takes to change the settings.



I have already found myself rolling the Ramifier from "stock" to "100HP" settings trying to get on to the highway or something, and then just turn it back down to stock after the little dash. . I like that quick easy turn of the knob, just not the ETG's I am currently seeing with it...



I CAN NOT go back to a non-adjustable box after this weekend... Running stock 75% of the time I pulled 21. 2 MPG highway (hand calculated) not the old 16-18 mpg with the edge set on level 4 all the time.



So anyone know what makes TQ and what makes HP??? Timing vs. Duration???





Thanks again,

Dave

 

[SRadke]

Timing and duration both increase power. At what point in the rpm range that power increases is what you're trying to differentiate between and call "power" and "torque". They really are one and the same. What you're looking for is a box that will make more low end power as compared to more high end power. You can make that power with timing, pressure or duration... ... though duration is where the big numbers hide. If you're looking for low end grunt the TST is the box for you. If you want an instant, low boost pour it on type of fueling ask for the twin program. A word of warning about the twin program with a single though, you can only use a couple settings with a single so you 'll loose a lot of adjustability. Also, no need for quick setting changes, set it and leave it. I drive everyday with mine on 5:5 and get the same mileage as I do on 2:2.



-Scott

 

[qzilla]

OK I want to know which most effects HP, and which most effects TQ?



I figure that Duration = Torque, and Timing = HP.....



Is this true for the most part?



I am tring to find a "simple box" that has numbers compairable to my EZ but I want it to be adjustable. I picked up a Ramifier, but I am not sure it is what I was looking for. I like the looks of the Xillaraider but I am not real excited about the lower TQ numbers it puts out (compaired to the EZ)... . I don't even know what the TQ numbers are on the Ramifier, I was going to find out saturday on the Dyno, but one of these torque monsters broke it half way thru the day.



So I guess I want to figure out what I need to do to get to the area of 70-100 hp and 225 tq (but adjustable)... .



Last note, I like what the Bully dog programmer does but don't like the idea of over writing the factory programming so that one is kind of out of the question.



This is for a 305/555



thanks in advance,

Dave

Where did you hear that the torque numbers were low? I think we claim 100hp/200 tq and that is at the tires. I can also tell you that you will hit at least those numbers on any dyno (ie. superflow, mustang, or dynojet). Anyone can write anything they want down. I can assure you that we are not under torqued except for maybe TST. Put the Xzillaraider on a dyno vs whatever else you are thinking of and see what happens. If an EZ makes more torque on the same dyno and the same truck I will pay for the pulls.



I know one truck that pulled 300+ ft lbs gain on scheids dyno. This was a 600 and the race box. I would never claim those numbers, but it did happen.



Hope that clears things up.

 

[DaveMorris]

Easy there Quad,

I am not saying your box is bad by any means, it is just that the numbers that you guys are advertising compaired to Edges numbers are different. I am comparing HP and TQ numbers, yes you are putting out more HP but but I was comparing your "advertised" Level 2: 60hp/120tq to Edges advertised Level 3: 60hp/200tq... to try and get more of an apples to apples comparison. I like the higher horsepower, but I really am not sure my truck will handle it (EGT's) while pulling my trailer. Maybe Edges numbers aren't taken the same way you guys are measuring, if that is the case then great Oo. .



Here is what I want, (and so far I am not sure that the Ramifier I just bought is going to sucessfully do this):



(With a stock 305/555 truck: no exhaust mods, not intake mods)

1. more power then stock

2. adjustable on the fly

3. to pull hills in OD with my jeep / trailer (8-9K lbs. ) with "at least" the power of the EZ on level 4 without getting over 1250-1300 pre turbo like the EZ was capabe of doing.



The Ramifier is giving me high EGT's empty, but has alot more power then the EZ, but with the EZ I was able to tow "my load" and keep the power up on level 4 without problems with temps (under 1300 degrees). I don't think that this will be doable with the Ramifier so to get the adjustablity I suspect I lost ground on "usuable" trailer pulling power (will find out this week pulling my jeep).



I don't want go into the "pit fall" of starting to modify one thing and it roots into something else to make it work properly (already done to much of this on my jeeps)...



Again not bashing any ones boxes, but I don't know if anyone makes an adjustable box that will do what I am asking. If you think yours will then I am more than happy to give it a shot??



Thanks for the response,

Dave

 

[qzilla]

Level 2: 60hp/120tq to Edges advertised Level 3: 60hp/200tq...



Dave

All I am saying is that we can put anything we want in print. Stick them on a dyno and you might be sadly disappointed in advertised numbers.



Now, do I think you can pull a big grade with your jeep on my highest level... . no. I would never recommend that. IF you have gauges you might be suprised, but you won't ever hear it from me.





Quad

 

[Tim]

Why don't you open up your exhaust if your EGTs are too high, instead of changing boxes?

 

[Goodys1ton]

That is one thing I was dissapointed with my EZ is that I could never hit the "advertised torque gains" at any level. Yes I did see an increase, but not what I had expected. At first I thought there was something wrong with my truck, but then reading others dyno numbers I saw the torque was not there just as in mine. Again it may be how my truck is set up, who knows!!



Just my 2 cents

 

[DaveMorris]

Quad,

If you are taking power at the wheels then you are right, you are way higher then the EZ. My truck 48re 305/555 did 326hp/618tq on the last dyno run with the EZ on level 4. So that means only +21hp/63tq vs your +100hp/200tq???? :--) Holy Christ Man :--) ...



OK enough about advertised HP/TQ I applogize for the confusion with the numbers... I guess I need to give you a call and get this box on order...



Thanks for clearing things up,

Dave

 

[JCleary]

Quad,

If you are taking power at the wheels then you are right, you are way higher then the EZ. My truck 48re 305/555 did 326hp/618tq on the last dyno run with the EZ on level 4. So that means only +21hp/63tq vs your +100hp/200tq???? :--) Holy Christ Man :--) ...



OK enough about advertised HP/TQ I applogize for the confusion with the numbers... I guess I need to give you a call and get this box on order...



Thanks for clearing things up,

Dave

Your truck should dyno stock at about 244/444 more or less. Figure 20% loss. If your truck did 326/618, you're looking at +82hp and +174tq with the Edge on level 4.



I hope to know soon what the Quad box will do

 

[DaveMorris]

See there you go, I never claimed to be a "smart one" thanks that makes alot more sense...



Dave