Timing on '05 (sensor ?s)

[rbattelle]

One thing I thought about: I refuse to accept any mileage claims without seeing hard data taken for a long time prior to install of the device, followed by a sufficient string of data taken after installation conclusively showing an improvement in economy. I'm sorry, but I've learned never to believe people's fuel economy numbers unless they keep an accurate log book. With all due respect (I'm not calling anyone a liar here, I'm just saying people's "feelings" or even mileage over 2 or 3 tankfulls doesn't give the whole story).



-Ryan

 

[67guzzler]

Ryan -- You want a guarantee that it's going to do what people say it does... . Hmmm.....



Here's my take -- It's priced at a point where it doesn't matter whether it works or not. Having said that -- I think there is a good chance it will improve efficiency because the science is sound. This isn't like the turbo-glide air intake thingie.



So I think you've done your fiduciary for yourself. You've done your research. You've discussed it with morons like me (per TIM). I guess you're to the point where you either decide if you want to take the plunge and spend the $78 on faith... ... or not.



No guarantees. And nobody is going to convince you -- nor should they.

 

[rbattelle]

I know... I just enjoy the debate...



-Ryan

 

[betterthanstock]

Hey guys, for those worried about the added cylinder pressures, it is this pressure that pushes your piston down. You don't want it so far advanced that it pushes while the rod is still vertical, but 2 extra degrees is right at optimum for normal use. Didn't the old 12 valvers have fixed pump timing? At least tractors do. That means that at idle and low speeds they were overadvanced, so you worried about lugging them, but at high rpm they were retarded, so they limited the rpm to cut down smoke.



Now with computer controlled timing and pilot injection the peak pressures (which cause the knocking) are so reduced that you don't even hear the diesel knock , so where is the stress compared to the pre-pilot injection diesels? Shortened life? I think less soot means a cleaner engine and oil.

Now eliminating the pilot injection, that would bring back some big stresses.

 

[67guzzler]

I know... I just enjoy the debate...



-Ryan

And a good discussion it has been! Lots of good posts here about how all this stuff works. I figure there is always some more nuances that I can learn as everyone comes with a slightly different vantage point having had diverse experiences.



Quite frankly, one of the most enjoyable aspects for me is the good natured joking & sense of humor. It's a rule that you have to laugh at yourself at least once per day. Some of us (speaking from experience) have many more opportunities than others.

 

[nauidvr1]

Is there any gain to getting this device if say, you already have an Edge Juice? Or is it a moot point if you have a box - just wondering.

 

[Sarge]

One thing I thought about: I refuse to accept any mileage claims without seeing hard data taken for a long time prior to install of the device, followed by a sufficient string of data taken after installation conclusively showing an improvement in economy. I'm sorry, but I've learned never to believe people's fuel economy numbers unless they keep an accurate log book. With all due respect (I'm not calling anyone a liar here, I'm just saying people's "feelings" or even mileage over 2 or 3 tankfulls doesn't give the whole story).



-Ryan

Ryan, your killing me here!! How about 4700 miles worth of testing!! I have towed with my truck 20,000 miles before adding the sensor, then towed for a month and thousands of miles since!! I probably fueled over 20 times on that trip! I don't brag about excessive mileage claims. Heck I'm one of the few that admit that my 9000# dually 4X4 doesn't get 20 MPG towing 12,000# !! :-{} I only report "real world" numbers, and exaggerating doesn't mean spit. I am delighted to increase 1 MPG for this beast pulling over #20,000 pounds Oo.



OK, I'll get off the soap box. I view most mileage claims very cautiously, but this one has proved out. I also do not post to impress anyone. If it wasn't true, I wouldn't say it. I can understand being cautious, but come on... ... ...

 

[67guzzler]

Sarge -- Look lower at post #63. He admitted he was just "enjoying the debate" at this point... I think he's pretty much sold on the idea. The question is whether he'll take the plunge or not.....

 

[67guzzler]

Is there any gain to getting this device if say, you already have an Edge Juice? Or is it a moot point if you have a box - just wondering.

At the http://www.rokktech.com/_mgxroot/page_10442.html they list boxes that are compatible.



If you have a box that aggressively advances the timing already, this modified sensor will add another 2 degrees of advancement. That may not be the best idea.



I don't know anything about the edge juice. Hopefully someone else will know about how aggressively it advances the timing, if it does so at all.

 

[Sarge]

Oh, I also enjoy the debate, but I posted the mileage numbers at post #20!! No, that's good though. I have decided against a lot of mods after reading a spirited debate here on the forums. Believe me, if this mod was a dud, I'd be screaming like a little girl on Holloween... .....



Although I am a believer in the mod because I put it to the hard test, I'm still not sure I understand how moving the sensor about a 1/4 inch caused the timing to adjust... ... ??

 

[moparmarty]

Adjustable???

ROKKTECH calls their crank timing sensor "adjustable". What are the limits of adjustment? Or is it fixed at 2 degrees advanced from the stock position as everyone is quoting?

 

[TFucili]

The sensor mounts with one bolt in a slotted hole. This allows it to pivot, so you can attain anywhere from 0-2 degrees advance from stock.

 

[rbattelle]

Ryan, your killing me here!! How about 4700 miles worth of testing!! I don't brag about excessive mileage claims. Heck I'm one of the few that admit that my 9000# dually 4X4 doesn't get 20 MPG towing 12,000# !!

Okay, Sarge... I believe you!

Now with computer controlled timing and pilot injection the peak pressures (which cause the knocking) are so reduced that you don't even hear the diesel knock , so where is the stress compared to the pre-pilot injection diesels?

Does pilot injection really reduce peak pressure? I know the main reason it reduces knock is it's effect on delay angle (and consequently rate of pressure rise), but I can't recall seeing any data indicating it actually reduces peak pressure.



I still wonder how the ECM handles the apparent discrepancy between the CKP and the cam position sensor after this device is installed. Is there any way to also index the cam position sensor by exactly the same amount?



This has been a great discussion, especially since no one has gotten mad at anyone! These kinds of topics are my favorites on this site.



-Ryan

 

[67guzzler]

This has been a great discussion, especially since no one has gotten mad at anyone! These kinds of topics are my favorites on this site.



-Ryan

No it's not. It's sucked. Terrible discussion. I've hated it. HATED IT! Comments like that really getting me PO'd



:-laf :-laf :-laf



Now I wish my sensor would get here soon so I can report my findings. Oo.

 

[nickleinonen]

I still wonder how the ECM handles the apparent discrepancy between the CKP and the cam position sensor after this device is installed. Is there any way to also index the cam position sensor by exactly the same amount?

as long as you are not a total of gear 1 tooth out in the amount that the crank and cam sensors are out, it won't care. if you are out by a tooth, then the ecm might not be happy as it will think your engine was assembled wrong with the crank and cam timing being out.



pilot injection does nothing to reduce peak cylinder pressures, it just slows down the pressure increase. the pressure increase is what causes the noise in the diesel. slow it down, and the noise gets reduced...

 

[rbattelle]

the pressure increase is what causes the noise in the diesel. slow it down, and the noise gets reduced...

I agree 100%.



-Ryan

 

[67guzzler]

pilot injection does nothing to reduce peak cylinder pressures, it just slows down the pressure increase. the pressure increase is what causes the noise in the diesel. slow it down, and the noise gets reduced...

I miss the noise. My 12v sounded right. How do I turn off the pilot injection? #ad

 

[CoastyAV8R]

How does the timing on 600 engines differ from the previous models that weren't as concerned about Nox? By using the Rokktech sensor, does it bring the timing more in spec with the older engines?



I ordered one prior to this whole discussion taking off and I can honestly say I am very conservative about anything I have put on this truck as I am in it for longevity, the truck has plenty of power compared to my previous CTD trucks. I'm still waiting for the sensor to show up but I feel guys like Sarge who have installed and worked the truck fairly hard without any problems (codes, knocks, etc) is a good short term litmus test. The increased BMEP effect on the engine long term is up for debate as we may not see anything for quite a while whether it is bad for the engine or not. With quite a few guys having run boxes that alter the timing more than 2* for many miles, it seems the engine can handle it. I have read the posts of guys running their trucks at 1500* up a grade pulling a trailer for long periods of time and THEN ask if that is bad for their truck. The fact the truck was still running is a testament to the strength of the engine and makes a 2* change of timing seem miniscule. If the only reason they have the current timing is for Nox why is it then that my oil gets dirty quicker and the exhaust on the side of the truck is worse on this truck than any of my prior CTD's? It seems to me that this truck runs dirtier that the others even though the Nox may be lower.



I enjoy reading all sides of this debate, but I have, atleast in my own conservative mind, reasoned away the "It'll hurt my truck" gremlins to the point I feel comfortable installing this sensor.

 

[67guzzler]

Yea! What CoastyAV8R said! I agree 100%, I think.



You used words like "litmus" and "miniscule". You talk like me!



I especially like acronyms like BMEP. What does BMEP mean?



Just kidding!!! Sheesh. I know what BMEP means.



BIG MEN EAT POTATOES. Am I right? What did I win?



On a much more important note -- I just realized that the new CocaCola Zero is the same thing as TAB Cola but with aspertame instead of saccharin.



Ok, Ok. Minor brain fart. I'm ok. Mini-Strokes suck.



Where was I? Oh yea... .



I ordered my timing widget like 10 days ago and still no show. What up w/dat?



I just had another thought. Don't worry. I'm still on track. Wouldn't it be cool if you could just hook up a gadget like the TripleDog but then download these minor changes to the computer rather than this archaic method of putting on a hacked up sensor? I mentioned this before but I think it's worth mentioning again. All these performance mod companies have these different boxes and downloaders so they know what can and can't be changed and what combinations are a no-no. Let us mix and match and play with it a little. Put limits in the software that won't let us use damaging combinations. That would be really neat. Not of this pre-set junk. Standard, Tow, Performance, Crazy Larry. The heck with that. Give me the parameters and I'll set my own values. I'm a "custom" kinda guy.



Who do I talk to? I think I'm onto something here.....

 

[CoastyAV8R]

Bill Gates could probably help ya...



I imagine DC has put something in place that won't let us dummies mess with their engine computers very much when it comes to reprogramming them. From what I gather the current fueling/timing boxes just fool the ECM into thinking the engine is not getting excess amounts of fuel or that the timing is getting changes and if it does detect something going awry, it spits a code at ya. You are defnitely on to something and would be a rich man if you could develop it, now get to work. I'm in...