Competition timing with water/meth

[TTork]

I would love your opinion regarding the timing of the pump in combination with water/meth and a tiny amount of propane( just for economic and clean burn reasons, propane costs less than half of the dieselfuel in Europe)

So far I run stock timing and the other modifications are:

95 stc 2wd,TST# 4, 16cm non wastegated housing, 3kgsk, 4 inch exhaust, k&n filter,192 dv, 370 marine injectors, trans go shift kit, edgeracing workhorse billet conv. , gear vendor overdrive,3. 54gears,22" 305/45 22's, (we have the autobahn and it´s fun to beat the V10 Tuaregs in top speed)egt,boost,trans temp,stageII snow perf. water/meth,bullydog propane inj.

I should repeat that I'll go very conservative on propane and plan to ad water meth(50:50) starting with 23psi of boost. without drugs I see 42 psi at the moment. Since propane and water meth both advance the timing I'm not sure if I should leave it stock or slightly advance it. Please tell me your opinion.



Thomas Tork (Germany)

 

[Fletcher]

I would love your opinion regarding the timing of the pump in combination with water/meth and a tiny amount of propane( just for economic and clean burn reasons, propane costs less than half of the dieselfuel in Europe)

So far I run stock timing and the other modifications are:

95 stc 2wd,TST# 4, 16cm non wastegated housing, 3kgsk, 4 inch exhaust, k&n filter,192 dv, 370 marine injectors, trans go shift kit, edgeracing workhorse billet conv. , gear vendor overdrive,3. 54gears,22" 305/45 22's, (we have the autobahn and it´s fun to beat the V10 Tuaregs in top speed)egt,boost,trans temp,stageII snow perf. water/meth,bullydog propane inj.

I should repeat that I'll go very conservative on propane and plan to ad water meth(50:50) starting with 23psi of boost. without drugs I see 42 psi at the moment. Since propane and water meth both advance the timing I'm not sure if I should leave it stock or slightly advance it. Please tell me your opinion.



Thomas Tork (Germany)

Derbrumin schnlllebig ? weitere die zeitberechnung... ... .....

 

[Cooker]

I cannot comment on the timing question but I would be very careful trying to push your HX35 any harder. 42psi is not too good for it and the water/meth with only generate more PSI and your turbo might not live too much longer.



The other thing to be concerned is a head gasket failure. With a small turbo seeing excessive boost pressures and water/meth and propane I think you will be popping a headgasket sooner than you would like.



I would suggest an external WG or a different turbo.

 

[TTork]

Hi there is that an answer translated to german by a computer?

Unfortunately it doesn't make sense at all and I guess my english is good enaugh to understand it if you answer in english... but thanx anyway.

 

[TTork]

I cannot comment on the timing question but I would be very careful trying to push your HX35 any harder. 42psi is not too good for it and the water/meth with only generate more PSI and your turbo might not live too much longer.



The other thing to be concerned is a head gasket failure. With a small turbo seeing excessive boost pressures and water/meth and propane I think you will be popping a headgasket sooner than you would like.



I would suggest an external WG or a different turbo.

Thanx for the considerations and warnings, just bought 3 headgasket sets (orininal cummins) on ebay in Germany so I´m prepped and would use the opportunity for some head work and flow bench testing.

But as long as it lasts I let it run and since there are a lot of guys out there who use the snow performance water/meth injection, I guess i'm not the first one who thinks about the influence of a fast burning fuel on the advance curve and would appreciate some comments or further warnings if something went wrong with the use of water/meth and or propane.

I could install an external wastegate to make sure that my boost doesn't reach the crucial point of 50 psi (on a stock motor) and probably would have more or at least longer fun with it that's probably a good idea thanks for the hint. so far it's just the turbo bark which irritates me but the pop of valve I've on my Lotus Turbo doesn't realy make sense on an engine without throttle body because the pressure wave can flowback to the aircleaner where it generates that typical noise. I try to drive in a way so that I avoid it but when the converter goes into lock-up under more than easy load it does bark a bit. That would be another subject Iwould greatly appreciate some experiences and opinions from your side. In Europe there are unfortunately not a lot of guys to talk to about Cummins tuning.

thanx Thomas

 

[Timebomb]

I would say 16 to 17. That would be a start. Oh and as mentioned do be carefull with the HX/35 . I think they start to lose efficiency around 35 psi. Mine starts to surge at about 40 psi. and the boost gauge bounces to 48 psi. I just don't have the $$ for a larger turbo just yet. So I just try to keep my foot off of the throttle.

 

[Cooker]

I could install an external wastegate to make sure that my boost doesn't reach the crucial point of 50 psi (on a stock motor)

Thomas 50psi is what some talk of as the "magic" number not to go over as far as boost goes on a stock headgasket. With head studs 50psi seems reasonalbe on a stock HG.



The problem in your situation is more of an issue of drive pressure than boost. That HX35/16 at 50 psi will have well in excess of 50psi of drive pressure while your cylinder pressures are going though the roof and your headgasket will certainly be in jeopardy. Add to that a little shot of propane and methanol and your pressures in the combustion chamber will only get worse and your head gasket failure is only a matter of time before it lets go.



A little info on turing and turbos, and I apologize if you are already aware of this, but boost doesn't equal HP. Believe it or not I would be willing to bet that you would achieve more maximum HP out of your HX35/16 by lowering boost from your present level, and at 50psi you are only making the situation worse.

 

[TTork]

Thank you Cooker,(I hope it's ok to use your TDR name). I guess you are right with the limits of the original HX 35 Turbo. I wasn't aware that about 35 psi is the limit when it starts to loose efficiency but I saw the same problem on my BMW in line 6 diesel,which I have installed in my Scout 800. I installed an intercooler, tweeked the pump and adjusted the waste gate but it showed that the limit of the BMW engine is pretty low in comparison to the cummins. With the original turbo all I was able to achieve was a horsepower gain of 30% on the dyno and it was a fact that it didn't make more power with more boost, obviously because the inner pressure and resistance didn't allow any further gain in that set-up.

only the temperatures went up and Iadjusted it more conservatively to a lower boost level and have been driving it for 4 years now without any problems. (but unfortunately with less power than I would like to achieve).

On the BMW boost is easy to adjust via the waste gate,are there any other options you would recommend on the cummins besides the external waste gate. What are the HP numbers which can be - due to your opinion - achieved with the original turbo and does water/meth make sense at all in this set up? What would be the turbo you would recommend and do you know someone where I could order the stronger head studs?

Thank you for your advice.

 

[Cooker]

On the BMW boost is easy to adjust via the waste gate,are there any other options you would recommend on the cummins besides the external waste gate.



What are the HP numbers which can be - due to your opinion - achieved with the original turbo and does water/meth make sense at all in this set up?



What would be the turbo you would recommend



Do you know someone where I could order the stronger head studs?

There are 12cm and 14cm wastegated exhaust housing for the HX35. The problem is with big fueling the wastegates on those housings are a little small and my not be able to bypass enough air. However you can modify the housings to flow more air.



The problem with going with a smaller housing is your EGT's will increase and you will give up some top end, but your spoolup will increase. With your fueling I don't know that I would recommend a smaller housing.



You can install a couple pop off valve to control the maximum boost, but an external WG plumbed before the turbo would be a better way to go, and would be safer for the turbo.



IMHO water/meth is great to help with EGT control when trying to stay with a smaller turbo. Jim Fulmer has said a few times a HX35/16 is capable of producing a 450HP truck with water/meth and keeping EGT's from getting astronomical (I think they were around 1600 degrees, which is still pretty high). I guess it really depends on your EGT comfort level as to how much HP you can run with an HX35/16



The other thing you could do is install a larger turbo. That in itself can be a huge conversation so I will let you do a little searching on the TDR first before typing a novel If you are wanting to stay with a single charger there are several good options for your fueling level such as the B1 line of turbos (a little spendy) and the turbos being offered from High Tech Turbo (a little less spendy) or an HX40 might be a good choice too but some have issues with the reliability of the HX40's. Otherwise twin turbos are always very nice, but can be spendy Given your fueling with a 160 pump I think an HX40 would do ok but I would consider an HTB2 from High Tech Turbo, or a B1-2 from a vendor like Piers would offer you a little room to grow



I would recommend checking with Piers on the head studs. I sent you a PM with a little additional info.