Timken Clutch Release bearing, NV5600

[Darkbloodmon]

Looking for the Timken P/N for the clutch release bearing on my 03 5.9 NV5600, I've seen some conflicting numbers online and searched the archives and this forum already.

Additionally I'm getting ready to swap my clutch amongst many other parts and pieces come spring break if I have enough sober hands that aren't flying out of town, if not then than early summer. I've been wondering if anyone has any experience with Phoenix Friction Clutch components? I see a lot about south bend and Vlair amongst other big names etc. But im more of a question first observe second unless my gut tells me it's a sure bet. Any advice on the process of getting this war head out from underneath my barge would be appreciated(I know what parts im going to replace rear main, oil pan gask, Fleece coolant bypass, came seal, etc.), I will be doing this in my driveway most likely with the T case attached, I've been told you could sling it with ratchet straps on the frame. I do have a trans jack.

The Truck: is an 03 HO 5.9 NV5600 207K when I got it after the previous 4 family owners who had been towing in Alaska with a fifth wheel as the crude bed holes are still there. I daily it to College and work 20mi a day if that. I've previously installed a new stock shifter from allstate gear and dual Fast trans coolers from Genos, she's sloshing 7 quarts of the finest.

My setup will be a Phoenix Friction Stage 3 HD Kevlar Clutch 13" said to be good for many many miles of smooth engagement and moderate towing rated for 490HP and 880lbft (provided the 1K mi break in) ,I'm not sure about their pressure plate I might take some time to research a better one if my doubts grow, I'm not using their pilot or clutch release bearing as per this thread title. I will be using a South bend HD roller bearing flywheel. A new fork and stainless pivot stud from Allstate Gear and a new Hydro assembly though the current one is still fine.

Once I get everything in i'll post a review of my install process and after thoughts especially on the clutch feel and operation.

Here is a link to the clutch: https://www.phoenixfriction.com/p-2...iesel-ram-2500-3500-6-speed-nv5600-13-in.aspx
I like the options they have, they seem to know their stuff. Time will tell since I've not seen many reviews on their products, maybe they're a hidden gem.

 

[GCroyle]

Timken parts look up https://showmetheparts.com/timken/ but guaranteed this is not image of actual part.


I re-read your post, you are challenging their pressure plate, not using their pilot or clutch bearing. Not a big vote of confidence by you in your selection.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Timken parts look up https://showmetheparts.com/timken/ but guaranteed this is not image of actual part.


I re-read your post, you are challenging their pressure plate, not using their pilot or clutch bearing. Not a big vote of confidence by you in your selection.

How specifically am I challenging their pressure plate by using more durable parts that fit and function the same as the ones provided in the kit? It's not as if the components are married like rocker assemblies to a cylinder.

Can you explain why my choice of parts isn't up to "snuff" ?

 

[sag2]

I think you are looking for complications. Why not just use the parts that come in a kit? Either use the Phoenix stuff of go with South Bend or any other vendor. Mixing parts will just cause problems if you have any concerns after the install. Each vendor will point the finger at the other as to the cause of any problems. If your OK with that, mix and match any parts you like.
As a shameless plug, South Bend has been a very good supporter of TDR members over the years. Their products and support have been great. Perfection Clutch has some very good information and videos on their site if you want to do a little more research.
You are new here, welcome aboard. There are some pretty sharp folks when it comes to clutches (GCroyle for instance) so their knowledge and advice should not be discounted.

 

[Wayne M.]

Following this one. I’ll be doing this too.

My vote is for keeping everything under one roof.

 

[GCroyle]

I'm not sure about their pressure plate I might take some time to research a better one if my doubts grow, I'm not using their pilot or clutch release bearing as per this thread title.

Copying your words above regarding looking for better pressure plate and not using their pilot or clutch bearing.


I'm not challenging the components supplied in anybody's kit, but since you asked.

Timken clutch release bearing for the Dodge Ram Diesel.
Original supply was Aetna or BCA, actually kinda forgot who was first might have been Aetna. Actually installed an Aetna in my 200K 2005 NV5600 last summer. Old school thrust bearing.
I have never seen a Timken branded clutch release bearing, ever. I'll wager it's a product line they sourced and added to take care of a customer's request. See closing statement below.

The original disc and cover for NV5600 applications was made by LuK. The aftermarket part numbers were LD1935 and LC2023 respectively. The cover in your kit is the LC2023 "family" based on one pic. NOTE: This cover has now been made by other suppliers. An original LuK version will have a long number stamped in the diaphragm spring fingers on the FW side starts with 4 and maybe 8 digits total. If it has 437 or 437 T1 or T2 that's not made by LuK. I DO know where that number comes from.

One thing about mix and match that is unknown or overlooked by the "mixmaster" is the Gage dimension or compressed disc thickness. As long as the DISC compressed is the magic Gage dimension, pressure plate and diaphragm spring are happy with each other, thin it down or make it thicker, be careful that can lead to thin ice ahead. So what is the compressed and even released thickness of your disc vs the unknown of your choosing cover assy? When a casting is machined it's cut on a lathe and leaves that distinct lathe cut tooling groove finish. Does yours have a grind pattern on it like a resurfaced FW? Then they somehow ground it as an assembly to accommodate a thicker disc or took it apart to grind it and then reassemble it. IMHO neither procedure assures you of the same plate lift as it was built with in that one hit assembly press fixture. And what about the inside diameter of the facings? The original LD1935 was known as a narrow band facing that actually has a higher TORQUE CAPACITY than an equivalent (same OD) but WIDE BAND (smaller ID facing) disc. Yeah, it's a math thing. I can back that up.

And from a suppliers perspective if you buy their kit and then start changing major parts, I don't think that's a recipe for oh yeah we'll cover your experimenting under our warranty kinda thing. Use all of their parts and you can point finger at them.

Closing statement.

I've added some info and details that may/may not help you make a decision and pointing you in ANY direction is not my interest. To my associates in my previous career it was a flattering comment when they called me A Clutch Guy. I just retired from 39 years in the automotive aftermarket exclusively with clutches. The YouTube channel (clutches only) has 9.7M views and my NV5600 clutch install 214K views. The most popular has 1.5M views hurts my head too.

Good luck,

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

One thing about mix and match that is unknown or overlooked by the "mixmaster" is the Gage dimension or compressed disc thickness. As long as the DISC compressed is the magic Gage dimension, pressure plate and diaphragm spring are happy with each other, thin it down or make it thicker, be careful that can lead to thin ice ahead. So what is the compressed and even released thickness of your disc vs the unknown of your choosing cover assy? When a casting is machined it's cut on a lathe and leaves that distinct lathe cut tooling groove finish. Does yours have a grind pattern on it like a resurfaced FW? Then they somehow ground it as an assembly to accommodate a thicker disc or took it apart to grind it and then reassemble it. IMHO neither procedure assures you of the same plate lift as it was built with in that one hit assembly press fixture. And what about the inside diameter of the facings? The original LD1935 was known as a narrow band facing that actually has a higher TORQUE CAPACITY than an equivalent (same OD) but WIDE BAND (smaller ID facing) disc. Yeah, it's a math thing. I can back that up.

I can follow the logic behind the machining aspects and specifications of the pressure plate function to a clutch thickness, It makes more sense to leave it as is in that respect which I'll do. Thank you for your explanation.

The Warranty is of no concern to me, I know very well mixing parts is ill advised in tracing a problem should one arise. (but is every part on your truck OEM? no because there are better alternatives that outweigh the risk, I know not everything is worth doing it over and the extra money) But a part is a part, if I get something wrong i'll be back in there anyways and rather than point a finger i'd rather figure out what went bad, why and how to prevent it again, be it my installation or a component. There's only two outcomes, I get it right the first time, or I have issues and go back in and im not so nervous at the latter to not put a better part performing the same function; in respect to the Roller bearing flywheel and Clutch release bearing in comparison to what came in the kit a brass (ring) pilot bearing and some unknown chinese manufactured clutch release bearing.

I appreciate the feedback and caution on this thread, Hopefully I can add some new information to the archives if all goes well on this setup. I think i've got it thought out and have a good gut feeling on it. Nothing ventured nothing gained right? (New Venture pun)

I'll check out your install GCroyle and the channel, im more nervous about getting the trans out and in than the parts installation and fitment.

I'll post all my findings to this thread after doing the deed, keep in mind break in for the clutch itself is 1000mi of stop and go traffic (recommended). I'll also keep the old flywheel, clutch, Plate and bits as a reference, I know its been gone into once but i suspect only the flywheel, fork, and stud are OEM.

Thank you for your feedback once again.

 

[NIsaacs]

You might take a look at one of these throw out bearings from Rock Auto, I think they are all good ones in the standard offerings, I would stay away from the economy one. They list Sachs, National, Timken and SKF. I have a complete Sachs kit in my '01, stage one. I think Napa carries the SKF.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog...ansmission-manual,clutch+release+bearing,1968

I had a custom built 12" GM clutch from Phoenix Friction and installed it in my Ford conversion. The oem uses a small hub and 1 1/8" 10 spline input shaft that was not up to the Cummins power. They did a fine job combining the 12" clutch to a 13" hub. I did have to machine the flywheel center out bigger. It does use the roller bearing. I kind of hated to use the new one in the kit (no name) and pulled out a perfectly good SKF. I also use the supplied throw out bearing but it was a no name also. I don't use the truck much so I figured it would last for as long as I will use it.

I would not be afraid of using the disk and pressure plate from Phoenix Friction. I do think they use inferior pilot and throw out bearings.

Stock clutch v/s the new one.

 

[Darkbloodmon]

I would not be afraid of using the disk and pressure plate from Phoenix Friction. I do think they use inferior pilot and throw out bearings.

Noted, Thank you for the pictures. It's comforting to know I wasn't alone in thinking about the quality of their pilot and Throwout. I've been skimming Rockauto, and was looking at the 614114 Timken till i searched the P/N on Timken's show me the parts and got a conflicting picture and decided to ask to be sure.

 

[GCroyle]

614114 was IIRC the number BCA assigned to the release bearing for their aftermarket number.

Many used the same number.

 

[Wayne M.]

You go Gary!

 

[BigPapa]

Gary is definitely the man when it comes to clutches. I’d suggest heeding his advice.

 

[GCroyle]

Wayne and BigPapa,

Kind comments, thanks.

I’ve listened to so many clutch failed to perform as expected questions I guess I take it personal some times almost defending a dying (G56 the last big handshaker, what 14 year run?) product line that helped our family become a family with three kids and two grands. And most of the time it’s lack of attention to detail, driveway 12 pack installs or air in the hydros.

A clutch should be fun to drive if not why have it?

I haven’t shared this but now retired no reason not to. First 16 yrs were with Sachs in Ohio. Knew more German clutch part numbers than I knew existed. Then three years on OKC at New Clutch Company (L&S Automotive) and the best boss I’ve ever had. Thanks Mr Casey. Then three with Valeo in TN. They likely were instrumental in creating the opinions that colored the G56 DMF opinions even before the trucks needed an oil change way back in ‘05. But they didn’t even make the G56 DMF! Then almost 18 with Perfection.

There are very few systems that a driver has such a personal interaction with like a clutch. Think about someone driving so smoothly you almost don’t feel the shift vs whiplash shifting. That takes a skilled driver and a sweet engaging clutch. You install shocks and they do their thing. A clutch you control it. Have you hugged your alternator lately?

Then comes the power gotta have more bug. Anyone here that hasn’t enjoyed the famous rolling coal days? Remember Andyman in TN? He took me for a drive at a Mid TN GTG at Joe’s in Dickson and the road behind us disappeared into a black coal fog. Need more clutch? Josh Watson later twisted the input shaft clean off an NV4500 with a button system He won that day from us and grinned all the way to the shop. Later told me he spiraled another shaft with the same clutch. You didn't want it to slip did ya? The aftermarket will take your money hook up your torque and that silky smooth easy pedal quiet gearbox system is likely compromised.

OP ask supplier if that disc in your pic is as quiet as an OE system?

My fleet of handshakers has about 208K on the Nv5600 and 433K on the VW TDI 1.9L. And the Ram just finished a easy road trip towing my 30’ Airstream with a bed full of camp and cooking gear. I really like going up I-77 north into VA at Fancy Gap a nice 7 mile or so 7 % grade. I shift into 5th when it starts to load the power train and enjoy the view and not abusing the power train. Crest the grade back into 6th and watch out for the almost always on duty VA HP checking your speed a mile or two after cresting.

Keep your foot off the clutch pedal.

Gary

 

[Wayne M.]

Right in the $ Gary. When it’s time for my clutch, I want the replacement to be as nice as the OE that’s in there now. I’m familiar with that run of 77 up into 81. It’s really God’s country! I recall stopping off at a VA welcome/ rest stop right near there, and it was so nice, I didn’t want to leave.

 

[BigPapa]

Then comes the power gotta have more bug. Anyone here that hasn’t enjoyed the famous rolling coal days? Remember Andyman in TN? He took me for a drive at a Mid TN GTG at Joe’s in Dickson and the road behind us disappeared into a black coal fog. Need more clutch? Josh Watson later twisted the input shaft clean off an NV4500 with a button system He won that day from us and grinned all the way to the shop. Later told me he spiraled another shaft with the same clutch. You didn't want it to slip did ya? The aftermarket will take your money hook up your torque and that silky smooth easy pedal quiet gearbox system is likely compromised.

Gary

I remember that day well, Gary. Those were some good times. Things seemed so much simpler then. That was a fun group while it lasted. ACook won a clutch that day, as well, that he ran for a long time. I work with him everyday and still try to make any of Joe's pulls. He's had the Bandit up for sale for a bit over a year now.

 

[GCroyle]

BigPapa,

That’s when the bug hit me hard. I stopped overnight and rubbed elbows with the Mid TN crowd an inspiring trip.

I was towing a 40’ enclosed “race car” hauler down to Dallas for a show with a big customer. Cruising down the interstate listening to that 12V do its job.

Fast forward to about 2007 and I arranged a dyno day at perfection I put my 2005 in Dunbars hands for a run on his dyno.

Same event I made a deal with perfection to buy the 1997 3500 for easy money for our son, one problem it fell victim to the KDP. I took the mike and in front of the crowd told my son he had a truck but he had to learn what does KDP mean cause we had to fix it. The guys all roared! Took us 5 wknds to pull the cam and Anthony gave me a NOS gear case and lots of advice on the surgery. We ran that truck until about 4 yrs ago the dealer had no problem taking a rattling old 12V in trade. The coolest part was first start after KDP. Lines cracked, a bit of cranking, some fuel squirted at the lines, tightened the lines and told Jacob START YOUR ENGINE! Clatter sputter clatter IT LIVES. We were proud.

Anthony came down to our shop we put in a button system and in front our our loading dock he lit the tires up.

It’s been fun.

Gary

 

[Darkbloodmon]

Follow up with an issue. Removed the transmission today and discovered an issue when removing the flywheel.

Two of the bolts came out weird in a bad way they didn't break loose like the others and come out by hand. Tested the bolt holes with the new bolts and all but one will thread correctly. Pics below.

What are my options going forward? This is the second stripped component i've found on this truck from the previous owners and luk has it it's all critical components first was the turbo feed port on the filter housing that had threads pulled from it when I swapped turbos, now this.

 

[GCroyle]

Ouch.

Not a machinist. take a look at a good hole and in particular how deep the threads really go vs how long the bolt threads did go in. Can you modify a new longer bolt, cut to new length and take advantage of the deeper previously unused threads? You'd need to make sure the bolt doesn't bottom out and not fully clamp the FW and do it's job.

I'll let a machinist type comment on other thread repair options.

Gary

 

[MGreer]

Try to clean up the threads with a tap/thread chaser and see how it looks. A bolt will never clean them up good enough.

 

[mwilson]

Are they adjacent??