TO EDM OR NOT TO EDM What is the consenus

[Huff N Puff]

I recently installed a set of Mark Hendricks twins an HY9 on top and an BHT3B 26cm housing on bottom great spoolup lots of boost. . I'm running it with about 55lbs of total boost,with a set of DDIIIs . I have just a heavy puff of smoke of my launch but after that no more smoke all the way thru the 1\4mile. With the old HX40 I ran a 13. 3, with the twins I ran a 13. 7. Am I running short on fuel ?Is that too much air for a set of DDIIIs?and If I am,should I go with a bigger extruded honed injector or an EDM injector? for example JRs Black Magic stage Is. Will this injector give me the bottom end I want and flow enough for more top end?Is it a very streetable injector. Can I expect the best of both worlds,with an EDM injector. I would really appreciate any input on the Black Magic Stage Is or any similar injectors,EDMs especially, or others. Merv

 

[TxDieselKid]

I can honestly tell you that JR's EDM's will give you TONS more fuel. But I don't think that a lack of fuel is your problem.



I have his Stage3 Nuclear Nozzle, and love them. I don't think that you can get anything better then EDM's, and JR has done his homework, and is the way to go IMHO.







Andrew

 

[jwilliams3]

I think you made the right decision going with twins, but I think your secondary (top) twin is a little small for the top end power and is restricting air flow.

You might want to run your truck on a reliable dynojet and compare to your old numbers.



The turbine housing on the HY9 is tiny probably a 9cm if it is the one I am thinking of, spool up is great but top end is limited.



You might want to try an HX35/18 or HX35/21, or even an HX40/16 HX40/18 on top.



Just some suggestions and my opinions.



--Justin

 

[Idaho CTD]

Personally I agree with Justin. Unless you open your wastegate early (<10-15psi) the HY is choking the system bad. With that combo you definately want the HT3B to be doing most of the work. You might put a test port in the cold air pipe from turbo to turbo and see just what the 3B is doing. I would want near 30psi from the 3B and 10psi or less from the HY. It will hurt your spool up slightly but once you get that big 3B rolling then you'll have some air moving. If it was me I would at least move up to a HX35/12 and anything bigger would be better.



Some larger EDM's will definately help to get things moving. I dont know about JR's nozzles first hand but I know a set of DonM's Mach 3's, or larger, would definately help get things moving.



Nathan

 

[wsteffes]

Before joining TDR I had put together a set just like this.

Hy 9 is a good turbo up to 250 hp. But the exhaust pressures with a 500 hp truck it is to restrictive. Even with a wastegate (I think Mark is using a 43 mm gate) you are trying to push the extra 250 hp of diesel exhaust though a 1 3/4 pipe with two quick right angle turns. I ended up tapping into the exhaust manifold and putting in a second wastegate to feed the 3B. Then with two manual boost controllers you can control things for your setup. Yes, you need to be able to check boost out of the 3B, thats the only way to be able to set the wastegates so the turbos work together.

Low end work the HY9 to get things going. Work them together in the middle. Top end work the big boy and use the HY9 to compound the pressure to where you feel comfortable.

I used two Hallman boost controllers, controllers mount by turbos and wastegates and then an encased flex cable (like the old mech tach cables) into cab for on the go adjustment.

Bill



Newest toy is 03 2500 4x4 5. 9 HO 6 speed (fueling options still limited)

 

[Huff N Puff]

If the set up I have is to restrictive, how do I get 60psi or more of boost

Its evidently developing enough drive pressure with the waste gate dumping to the big turbo,and I am popping the wastegate open at about 15psi. With this combination I can peg the 60psi boost gauge with an awesome spoolup. If I cut back on the boost it will smoke. When I up the boost, it cleans it right up. To me I thought I was running more boost than the DDIIIs can flow. If it isn't the injectors may be the VP44 can't keep up with the boost,is that possible. Thats why I was thinking I needed to fuel it a little more. Thats why I was looking at the EDMs out there. Merv

 

[Idaho CTD]

Merv,



It's pretty hard to run too much air because the air is created from the exhaust driving the turbos. Basically what Bill is saying is that a HY9 is good to 250hp so say you are at 500hp, that means you need to WG half of your exhaust around the HY9 to the 3B. Your WG isn't big enough to do this, especially with the right angles (slowing the exhaust flow) in the WG plumbing. So say your WG is blowing off at 15psi and it is wide open that doesn't mean that the HY isn't turning more than that if the WG cant keep up. In this instance you might be able to use the internal WG from the HY, if it hasn't been disabled, to slow down the HY into its efficientcy range. Smoke and lag is something you have to deal with on the low end to get good efficient boost on the upper end with twins. You are turning two pinwheels therefore lag is unavoidable. The idea behind twins is to run them as efficiently as possible to keep from overheating the air.



One other thing to consider is what kind of back pressure you are developing at 55 or 60psi. I'd bet it's huge compared to the twins out there with larger secondaries.



If you want to stay with the DD3's you might consider a 22cm housing for the HT3B. It wont give you quite the potential on the top end but what you really need is to get the 3B to work way harder than it is now. Also get some test ports in your cold air pipe and secondary to IC pipe. Then you can find out what the 3B is actually doing for boost and you can check how hot the air is going into the IC plus the boost level pre-IC.



Nathan

 

[Huff N Puff]

Thankyou Justin,Nathan and Bill

Sounds like I need some test ports. Might be awhile but I'll let you guys know what I find. Merv

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Performance stuff is not generic. That is, one set of edm'ed injectors may be very different in smoke, power, longevity compared to another. Same for twins.



The HY35 is probably too small and boost air is too hot going into the engine. Until you have tracked your power increases through the Dynojet and know you have exceeded the injectors you have, or Super Mentals or whatever, don't try to bandaid a problem with huge smoker injectors. I have seen some such injectors from "prestigious" midwestern shops that lost 55 hp compared to DD's Mental series injectors. The DD3s and Mental series remain excellent choices for most folks seeking max hp. Don M has done extremely thorough research and testing of edm hole size, number of holes, etc etc if you want that kind of injector and are "desperately" experimenting and seeking those last few hp. His are good. I am not saying anything negative about others, because I don't know about them.



Believe it or not, poor old Sickly still has a modest set of DD Mental injectors. Lawrence and I hope to find a few more hp laying around. Can't let those pesky competitors get too close

 

[Jamie Attridge]

I have Don M's EDM injectors and they work perfectly I can't compliment them enough.

 

[Diesel Freak]

I fiddled with a HY turbo a while back. It is not capable of letting the engine breath when using DD3's. I was hitting 45-50 psi of drive pressure at only 30 PSI of boost.



You currently have enough air to use all the fuel you are squirting in the combustion chamber, but you do not have enough room to let all the exhaust out.



Swap the HY for your old HX40 as the small turbo, and then you should be able add some more fuel. The 40 will let the engine breath easier on the exhaust side, and also drop charge air temps at least 50F.



Once you dial in the turbos, Don's Mach 4's would work great

 

[Huff N Puff]

To Diesal Freak

Will I lose the bottom end spoolup with the HX40,would an HX35 with a 14cm housing flow enough and still give me the bottom end spoolup. By the way thankyou for the pointers. Merv

 

[Jetpilot]

Merv,



Next time we get together you are welcome to drive my truck and see how the twins compare. I am running a PDR-40 and PDR-HT3B setup manufactored by Northwest Custom.



Personally I think you need at least a HX-35 with something like a 16 or 18 housing... ... For what its worth I love the combination I am running.



Doug

 

[Diesel Freak]

Re: To Diesal Freak

Originally posted by Huff N Puff

Will I lose the bottom end spoolup with the HX40,would an HX35 with a 14cm housing flow enough and still give me the bottom end spoolup. By the way thankyou for the pointers. Merv

with DD3's and a timing box on my ETH, my PDR40 spools by about 1600 RPM WOT in 5th gear starting at 1100 RPM on a load type dyno. This dyno can load the truck harder than just going WOT down the road in 5th

 

[Idaho CTD]

Re: To Diesal Freak

Originally posted by Huff N Puff

Will I lose the bottom end spoolup with the HX40,would an HX35 with a 14cm housing flow enough and still give me the bottom end spoolup. By the way thankyou for the pointers. Merv

Merv,



This is what I experienced when I went from using a single PDR40 to twins with a PDR40 and a PDR HT3B. From a dead stop I would see boost at 1400-1450rpm with the single (running just DD2's, the box was off). With the twins I start to see boost around 1550-1600rpms. To me it now feels like a stock HX40 in spoolup time. Now when I go to my DonM Mach 5's (just the injectors) I see boost at 1200rpm's. Additional fuel definately helps them spool as you can see.



I guess what it boils down to is how much lag you can deal with? The more lag on the bottom usually means better top end (which you need at the track). The 35/14 would definately be better and your single WG would probably be able to keep up with it but top end egt's and cfm will suffer compared to a 40 or a larger housing on the 35.



Nathan

 

[Huff N Puff]

Hey Doug good to hear from you.

Might take you up on that Doug. A question to all the guys out there with twins. If I was restricting the exhaust with the small housing would I not have an EGT problem,if the big turbo was not being driven enough. By the way my EGTs are at about 1300 with the wastegate set at about 52psi of boost at WOT. This is my take on the set up I'm running. The small turbo handles the low end to about 20psi. When the drive pressures get high enough the wastegate blows open. The wastegate relieves the drive pressure on the small turbo,the restriction on the small turbo allows high velocity gases out of the wastegate to drive and accelerate the big turbo, but still drives the small turbo enough to compound what comes out of the big turbo. Is this a wrong assumption:Merv

 

[Jetpilot]

Merv,



Your wastegate is not large enough to flow the amount of exhaust gas it would take to be efficient. You are trying to bypass the small turbo with a wastegate that is 42 mm I believe... ... This combined with the 90* turns the exhaust gas must take through the watsgate makes it is physically impossible for enough exhaust gas to be wastegated so as to only drive the small charger 20 lbs. This appears to be the biggest problem with the setup from Mark.



As mentioned above if you can hook up a drive pressure gauge prior to the first turbo + a gauge between the turbos you will be able to get a good picture of what is going on.



Doug

 

[Huff N Puff]

Doug have you run your truck on the strip

And if you did how did it do in the 1\4mile,and how were your 60ft times. Merv

 

[Jetpilot]

Merv,



I have not been able to make it to the track since the twins..... I did make it to the dyno for a spin and picked up almost 100 HP from the twins alone. I will let you know times/speeds as soon as I can get to the track.



Doug

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Next time we get together you are welcome to drive my truck and see how the twins compare. I am running a PDR-40 and PDR-HT3B setup manufactored by Northwest Custom



Doug's truck will spool twice as fast as mine with a stock 35/18 on top.



I guess what it boils down to is how much lag you can deal with? The more lag on the bottom usually means better top end (which you need at the track). The 35/14 would definitely be better and your single WG would probably be able to keep up with it but top end egt's and cfm will suffer compared to a 40 or a larger housing on the 35



Agreed!



Jim