to plug in or not..that is the question

[KLauber]

The rest of the story...

Grid Heater Control Modules preheat cycle, ignition key on, before cranking the engine. Grid Heater Control Modules with a serial number below 0080000A do not preheat cycle unless it is 15*F or below. That serial number and/or higher has a preheat cycle from 15* to 59*. They all post heat cycle according to the manual, no other info on post heat.



Serial numbers below 0080000A



15* to 59* No preheat

0* to 15* fifteen seconds preheat

-15* to 0* seventeen and half seconds preheat

below -15* twenty seconds preheat



Your block heater that you plug into 120v heats the engine coolant in the block which keeps the oil warm etc. The grid heater utilizes a sensor in the head IIRC, it's called a Thermistor Sensor.



Fuel anti-gel additives are available at any decent truck stop. I have been using Howes which is a lube and antigel. I did have an incident though and probably will change brands If I run out this bottle before the weather breaks. Power Service and/or Diesel911 is what got me out of a gel situation recently, so that is my next choice.



#1 diesel fuel is thinner and less likely to gel than #2, if you pay attention at the pumps in these colder climates, you may notice it or a blend of the two fuels. #1 has noticably less power too.



Power Service anti gel additive and for $8 a bottle of Diesel 911 if your worried about it, just in case...

Basically what I just said, but with all the supporting knowledge I lack. .

Thanks sdstriper for the knowledge!



Ken

 

[BHerring]

I wont be able to get any anti-gel till tomorrow afternoon. What will the ole dodge do if my fuel gels? and if does I want to get Diesel 911, correct? If I drive to a warmer climate, say around 40* would I have to worry about the fuel gelling?

 

[sdstriper]

About a month ago I had a fuel gel experience just below zero degrees F with a 50/50 blend and Howes fuel additive. Until then I had no problems. The fuel gelled up pre lift pump. The truck stopped running on the Interstate. It was wonderful -35 windchill weather and I was happy as all get out...

 

[peobryant]

I wont be able to get any anti-gel till tomorrow afternoon. What will the ole dodge do if my fuel gels? and if does I want to get Diesel 911, correct? If I drive to a warmer climate, say around 40* would I have to worry about the fuel gelling?

I don't think you have to worry about the fuel gelling at 40*.

 

[sdstriper]

I wont be able to get any anti-gel till tomorrow afternoon. What will the ole dodge do if my fuel gels? and if does I want to get Diesel 911, correct? If I drive to a warmer climate, say around 40* would I have to worry about the fuel gelling?

If it gells you likely will not be going anywhere, and Diesel 911 is what you would want. Follow the directions, remove the fuel filter and fill it with 911. Pour the rest in the tank, I believe the bottle will treat 30+ gallons. I had alot of air in the system and had to crack the injector nuts to purge, it was not fun and took many, many hours. The weather was a major factor, brutal in fact...

 

[sdstriper]

I don't think you have to worry about the fuel gelling at 40*.

I agree, like I said. I had no problems above zero with additives, I have always used Howes as a lubricant and it is supposedly an anti-gel... It did fail me though.

 

[BHerring]

does the fuel gell or does it gell inside the injectors?

 

[BGore]

Sdstriper:

Do they blend in K-1 in the winter there? Are you using any form of biodiesel? Geesh, I've NEVER had problems with fuel. I'd be really interested to see if you can find out where the gelling occurred.

If you have problems with drawing fuel in any conditions except extreme way-below-zero cold and/or high winds, especially if you are using winter blend fuel I would say you definitely have something wrong. Having air in the system would lead me to think you either have a leak in the line or gasket or had a cube of solid fuel (or possibly some ice?) in the tank. Not sure how else air could get into the lines.

Just an idea - you could try getting a fuel can about 1/2 full of fuel and leave it closed in the same conditions as you leave your truck. That may give you an idea of the consistency of the fuel under those conditions, and maybe a place to start looking.

 

[sdstriper]

Sdstriper:



Do they blend in K-1 in the winter there? Are you using any form of biodiesel? Geesh, I've NEVER had problems with fuel. I'd be really interested to see if you can find out where the gelling occurred.



If you have problems with drawing fuel in any conditions except extreme way-below-zero cold and/or high winds, especially if you are using winter blend fuel I would say you definitely have something wrong. Having air in the system would lead me to think you either have a leak in the line or gasket or had a cube of solid fuel (or possibly some ice?) in the tank. Not sure how else air could get into the lines.



Just an idea - you could try getting a fuel can about 1/2 full of fuel and leave it closed in the same conditions as you leave your truck. That may give you an idea of the consistency of the fuel under those conditions, and maybe a place to start looking.

They sell #1 diesel right at the pump. I have never used bio yet. And I haven't had an issue since that night and I have been using the truck on a regular basis since. The truck would not fire up and run at all, only slightly firing, I actually changed the fuel solenoid thinking it was the culprit. But there was no fuel at the lift pump and it is very recently replaced. I gave up for a few hours thinking I would let the 911 do it's job and I needed to thaw out. When I returned a few hrs later I opened up the injector nuts and primed fuel to the injectors, then it fired, it took a few times of doing this to get it to run. And then it ran there for over an hour, took it around the lot and seemed fine, but once I got it to the offramp on the interstate it killed and I had to open them up again to get it going. Took it back to the truck stop and open them all one at a time until there were no bubbles, it took quite some time before there was no bubbles at all too. Remember that I had the filter off at one point and the solenoid. If the fuel gelled in tank or pre lift pump and the truck ran out of fuel. I suppose it could have sucked air somewheres... ?

 

[BGore]

Yeah, I think if the fuel had gelled in the line filter, etc somewhere you would get no flow, but you shouldn't get air unless you have a leak because all the air should be purged from these areas. If the fuel had gelled in the tank I suppose it's possible to suck up some air, I don't know, never had it happen to me. Don't want to either!!

May be a case of a very slow leak that with the fuel being thicker at those temps becomes more of a problem than normal -- or could be a bit of water in the tank freezing. Hard to tell, but might be worth a look because if there's a leak under these conditions it will probably get worse over time, eventually affecting operations at normal temps.

 

[sdstriper]

I never have replaced the rubber fuel lines coming off the steel lines from the tank, have new ones, just never got around to it. And I have never had the tank off yet either. So I have some investigating to do anyway. I want to know why the air didn't purge thru the return lines while it was running at idle for over an hour? It seemed to be running fine too, but you could tell a difference once I cracked those nut and ran the air out...

 

[BHerring]

Let me ask this question, if the truck is running do I have to worry about gelling or not?

 

[JLEONARD]

if the truck is running do I have to worry about gelling or not?

Yes, the fuel can gel at anytime when it gets too cold for the fuel to flow.

I happened several times to people I know with older VWs. They had no fuel heater.

It almost happened to me once last winter... during a very early cold snap... . was on my way to work and suddenly as I was driving thru a valley (cold settles) and went to apply some power to go up the next hill my engine was totally flat... very litttle response. I knew it was gelling... luckily I made it to the crest of the hill and it ungelled. It was a close call.

 

[Tippin Spotted Cow]

You have a far less chance of this once your motor is up to running temps, also. For one, we have a fuel heater that keeps it flowing, and for two, the injection pump and lift pump build up a lot of heat when running (feel either one on a motor thats up to temp) and even in really cold weather, they should be able to thaw fuel out as it gets to them. A winter front on your truck helps keep heat inside the engine bay and keep things moving, might not be a bad idea. I made one last year out of canvas for covering furnature when you paint and some zip ties. You just want something that can still breathe while keeping the radiator a little warmer.



As a side note, you may want to take a plastic sandwich bag and rubber band it over the end of your block heater cord. Road salt is very conductive and will short your a/c power source, trip the circut breaker within minutes of plugging it in, and leave you with a cold motor the next morning.



In your quest for knowledge, you will run across some people spouting off some very bad ideas. Some of this stuff I've heard for cold starting a diesel either just doesn't work for our trucks, is a bad idea, or is just plain fallacy.



1) Mix gasoline with diesel so it burns and flows easier in cold temps. Very bad idea. Gasoline has some very detrimental effects diesel motors. For one, it lacks the lubrication of diesel fuel, putting your injection pump at risk, which is lubricated soley by the fuel. It also burns hotter and faster than diesel which can cause preignition in a diesel motor, along with glazing on cylinder walls, pistons, and valves.



2)Mix kerosine with diesel. Ok... ok... like JLeonard said, thats what makes a winter blend fuel. But don't over do it. Kerosine also lacks the lubrication properties of diesel fuel. Oil companies add lubricants to diesel already, so I would imagine they also make up for the #1 they add. In a pinch, kerosine won't hurt if you mix it with your already winter-blended fuel, but as stated, some kind of additive is much better. Most anti-gel additives actually up the lubricity of the fuel, along with providing cetane boost and some other really great wonderful things that look good on a sales pitch.



3) Fire it up and let it run for 10 minutes a few times over night. Errt... wrong. This basically rolls up all the detrimental effects of cold starting into a big ol ball and stuffs them into your motor, without the benefit warming the motor up. At idle from a cold start, a diesel takes a very long time to get up to running temps, if at all. Besides that, your battery has to fire off the grid heaters, which take a bit of juice, and then turn over the beast that is the Cummins B5. 9. Your going to drain more than you replenish in a short time of idling. If you're really worried and want to employ this method, take it for a drive, at least a half hour on the road, and open it up a little, the Cummins likes it when it can breathe. If you get the thermostat to open (which sometimes takes a bit in really cold temps), you can probably turn around and head back. You'll know when it opens cause your temp gauge will all of a sudden drop dramatically.



4) Pour gasoline, ether, or something of the like into the intake. BAD... BAD... . BAD. You'll hear this from chevy and ford guys a lot. Especially the guys with older ford of chevy diesels will swear by it. The idea is that you're adding a fuel that burns easier that will easily explode even at cold temps in the cylinder rapily heating it up and igniting the diesel to get the motor running. They have glow plugs... in the cylinders. We do not. We have grid heaters... in the intake... do you see where I'm going? Highly volatile substance + super heated elements in the intake = light show. A very little amount will probably harmlessly burn up in the intake before it even reaches the motor giving you no benefit, but enough will blow up your intake. Then you can warm your hands on the resulting fire while you wait for the tow truck to show up.



If you read it on TDR or hear it straight from a Cummins dealer... or even a veteran semi driver, it's probably ok. But if you hear it from a ford or chevy guy, or some german car driver (vw, mercedes, etc) I would be wary. Our motors are more similar to whats in a semi than to any of the other light truck or car diesels, so you'll run into a lot of very misleading information out there.

 

[JLEONARD]

Mix gasoline with diesel so it burns and flows easier in cold temps. Very bad idea.

Not trying to be argumentative... honest... . but the older VW diesel owners manual said to mix gasoline in the diesel in cold weather... they said 5 gallons to a tankful if I recall correctly. And remember they use the same Bosch VE pump that we have... but only for a 4 cylinder.

And those engines were notorious for long life. I had one with 275K on it with the original pump and they were high revvers (5200 rpm)

So it has been a accepted practise.



The lubrication issue is important though.

 

[Mel Fuelling]

With 2 CTD Dodges, I have had two gelling incidents in the last 10 years. Both have

their group 31 battery replaced every two years (actually, rotated to farm tractors).

Both gelling incidents occurred in the same truck.



First incident was at -10, I started it, let it run for 5 minutes, started onto I-80, just got up to 65 when it started losing power and I pulled into a rest area, let it run for about 20 minutes,then anxiously pulled back out on I-80 and had no more trouble.



Second incident was at -15. I started it, let it run a couple of minutes, then pulled out

of the town I was in. After I got up to 55, it started losing power. I nursed it along for 15 miles slower and slower, until I reached a tractor shop that allowed me to pull into a heated shop bay and change fuel filters. (wind chill was around -40. ) The filter I took

out looked like it had jello in it and it stayed that way, melting a little, until I left. I put a new filter in and had no more trouble.



I have been told the newer fuel gels at a higher temp than before.

 

[catdsl]

plug it in its better for the engine

 

[JGrefenstette]

im sure most of yall already know this, but for those that dont. If you get to the point that you think your gonna need to you ether, brake cleaner, starting fluid, or anything to aid the starting of your engine. be warned, as its been talked about above, our trucks have intake grids. using starting fluid or any of the other things i mentioned above is not a good practice, as it is very bad for the rings, injectors, cylinder walls, and it can lead to ether addiction if used repeatedly or ecsesivly. but it is sometimes necisary. if you absoluty must use somthing to start the engine, disconect the wires from the grid heater. i dont know if yall have ever seen a grid heater of glow plug when 12volts are applied to them, they get white hot. needless to say you want a fire in the cylinder, not in the intake manifold. :-laf besides that, ether on those red hot grids can cause them to super heat and crack, then you got pieces of metal goin into the cylinder, which can cause a burnt valve, or just beat the **** outa the piston and cylinder head. if youve ever pulled a split injector out of a diesel that had ether run in it, whith out having the glow plugs disconected, you understand what im talking about. if your fortunate enough to even get the split plug out, you may even have to remove the cylinder head to get the broken pieces of the tip out.



sorry to rant. just wanted to mention this, since ive never seen any warnings about not using starting fluid in our engines.



(one more thing for those of you that still have the patients to keep reading )

last week at work i came out of the parts room and one of the other mechanics had a can of brake cleaner soaking the air box of one of our trucks. the driver was in the truck with is WOT. the engine was running at the govner, 1500rpm, (cummins ISM), on nothing but strait brake cleaner. the fuel filter housing was empty and they couldnt get it to draw fuel... if youve ever herd an engine run full throttle on nothing but ether or somthing like it, its a strange sound. well it was less that 5 days and the truck was towed back into the shop. needed a crankin motor, from all the cranking theyd done. and ill bet that in the next few weeks itll be back in for stuck injectors, hard starting, or somthing else of the sort. hahaha ignorance is bliss. :-laf :-laf the ISM and most big engines dont use grid heaters or glow plugs, cause the high compression they usually dont have a problem startin, if the batteries are up for the rodeo.

 

[BGore]

It's sounding to me that of those that have had gelling problems with the fuel, many of the incidents were while driving down high-speed roads. I have also heard of a few incidents where a diesel wouldn't start after a cold windy night, and I know mine sure is reluctant to start after one of those nights. So I guess taking precautions during really cold weather is a good idea. Perhaps adding in a little higher percentage of K-1 while fueling or putting and anti-gel additive in isn't a bad idea.

One thought - has anyone tried adding insulation of any kind to the fuel line from the tank or adding a windscreen to the tank itself?? If a good percentage of these problems occur during high speed driving, I could see how a cold 55 MPh wind could contribute to the problem. What I'm thinking of could serve the purpose of a "cold shield", kind if the same idea as a heat shield but in reverse for the tank, and some kind of pipe insulation for the fuel line.

The other thing that might help is I've seen on fire trucks a "heat pan", that collects heat from the muffler and exhaust system and contains it under the pump compartment to help keep the pump from freezing. Perhaps something like this would work for those of us that drive these in these really cold environments. The ones on the fire trucks are removable, and usually get taken off during the warmer months.

And yes, I have heard bad things about the newer fuel formula. Haven't had any problems yet, but I sure wish they would stop messing with the fuel formulas so we can get some fuel that is efficient and can be stored for more than a few weeks.

 

[rumblefish]

ill be giving mine the test tomorrow. its currently stuck in a buddy's yard. overnight low is supposed to hit -15, -30 with windchill factored in. i have confidence in it though.

update: i ended up getting my truck friday, with a high temp of 1 deg. windchill was somewhere around -10. before the sun came up it was -20 with a wc of -42. i ran the grids twice, and the truck fired. not great, but not terrible either. it sorta sputtered for the first 20 seconds or so, but then ran flawlessly.



it rememinded me of winter time at my old job. all the ford diesel guys had to park up by the building, with extension cords ran to their trucks. i parked in the back row like any other day, along with another 1st gen and a 3rd gen. we never had a problem starting, and now a couple of the ford guys drive gassers...