Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) To Propane or not to Propane?

[Nickaru]

Thinking about trying a Powershot 2000 system for my truck. Mainly for towing. I'm looking for a tank that would fit between the side of the bed and the frame so I don't use up the bed space. What's your opinion on propane? Some say don't do drugs and others state it causes pre-ignition which is bad for head gaskets. I've done searches on propane and seen just a little info here about it. I've called the Powershot people and they dispell the rumors. What gives?

 

[SRadke]

Propane causes high cylinder pressures and (at high boost levels) is a good way to blow out a head gasket. If drugs is what you want you may want to look into something a little milder like water/meth. Snow performance makes some nice kits. Based on your mods it looks like a good option.



-Scott

 

[RustyJC]

HO + propane + towing = blown head gaskets (or worse)



The HO has a higher compression ratio which translates to higher peak combustion pressures than the SO engine. Therefore, what might work OK on the SO in towing applications can cause problems with the HO.



Rusty

 

[mhenon]

Propane

I've read soom very favorable reports on diesel engines and "fumagation", as they put it, or propane injection. These were mostly related to more complete combustion (lower emmisions?) and engine longevity.

I believe the comments made here are correct however. When you actually get enough propane in the mix to feel that "kick in the rear", it's too much and you're headed for trouble.

I've looked at propane long and hard, for towing and fuel economy, and it just doesn't pay. A mild chip is the better solution in my opinion.



Mike

 

[Nickaru]

Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. Tell me more about this water meth stuff. Seems fairly new. I have been looking for info but, what kind of storage container is used. Is it Methanol, Methane or Nitromethane? How safe? I heard it does lower EGT's. Tell me... Thanks.

 

[SRadke]

Methanol = methyl alcohol. Similar to rubbing alcohol or Everclear Easy to store as a liquid, less flammable than gasoline.



-Scott

 

[Nick2]

if you do a search for snow performance youll get some good info. There has been quite a bit of chatter about it on the boards lately... . I believe Jim fulmer has a kit and also a few others.



For the record everclear is ethanol CH3-CH2OH



Rubbing alcohol is isoproply CH3-CH-CH3

I

CH2OH



and Methanol (grill lighter fuel) CH3-OH





Man that chemistry degree is really paying off



later



edit: cant seem to get the CH2OH group to line up on the isoproply drawing... oh well

 

[boydo]

Never had a problem with lpg, just remember you dont add lpg for more fuel, it is added to increase the catalyst of diesel fuel, tune it to see a 25 % increase in torque and you should have no problems. Propane is excellent for towing from the torque increase which it there as long as your making between 5 - max psi boost. water/meth is good to but don't expect huge egt drops, if you inject just water egt's go down, for example I run 30% methanol to water and see no egt drop but I do get a slower increase in temp's when using it, keep in mind that water /meth can only be used safetly at high boost conditions.



HO + PROPANE + WATER/METHANOL + TOWING(10000lbs) = 173000 km's and never had a problem. ( note: signature).



It's all good but dont be stupid and tune lpg or h2o/meth to see 100 + hp gain that will cause problems.



Good Luck.



Bret

 

[snowracer69]

just remember you dont add lpg for more fuel, it is added to increase the catalyst of diesel fuel,

I disagree 100% with you. Unlike nitrous, propane IS actually another fuel, and not just a catalyst for the diesel. Hence, propane (when running it for lots more power) will actually increase EGTs and other things, while nitrous will leave them the same, as all your doing is burning unburnt diesel, not adding more fuel like with propane.



Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what the chemistry in my head is telling me (granted I could care less about chemistry, so not sure that I'm 100% on the above).

 

[RustyJC]

Propane is a hydrocarbon fuel (C3H8). In fact, our company builds "dual fuel" engines that can run on straight diesel or can switch over on the fly to 96-98% methane (CH4 - AKA natural gas) with diesel pilot injection (4-2%) to ignite the methane. Propane is a significantly "wilder" fuel than methane (i. e. , it has a much greater tendency to autoignite), and engines we build that are going to operate on propane must either be power derated or built with special features such as lower compression ratio, retarded ignition timing, etc. , to handle this fuel.



Nitrous oxide is injected to provide more oxygen for combustion. Since nitrogen is an inert gas, it doesn't play an active role in the power production process. The oxygen in nitrous oxide is the "money player", but there has to be fuel available for the oxygen to react with. In other words, in a stock truck with lots of excess air from the turbo, nitrous isn't going to give any significant BHP gains - one would have to add more fuel to react with the nitrous oxide's additional oxygen.



Rusty

 

[boydo]

Propane increase the catalyst of diesel, most diesel engine only burn 75-85 % of diesel injected, when propane it blended with the air entering the engine it contolls the burn rate( catalyst), therefore 90-100 % of diesel in burnt. This gain in effiency is what gives a horsepower and milage gain. It's the people who think it's an extra fuel source and add way to much who do engine damage. Check out this link to ats, this is not the system I run but it also explains the real way it works. http://www.atsdiesel.com/products/products-dodge-engine-propane.asp

 

[Horsepuller]

I'd have to agree with boydo, from everything I have seen or read, it acts as a catalyst just as explained. My Bro-in-law has a propane setup on his Power Stroke and pulls a 12k lb trailer, no problems. Not something I am going to do, my truck has plenty of stock power.

 

[snowracer69]

you guys didn't read through the post made by the guy who obviously plays with this stuff for a living, did you?



Thank you for the info Rusty... I knew why nitrous works on a diesel, and assumed why propane was a fuel in itself, but you pointed it out a lot better.

 

[Jetpilot]

The phrase "Propane increase the catalyst of diesel" is sales hype. Propane is a fuel and will cause detonation thus increasing the risk of headgasket failure or worse. I know several guys who run propane with good luck but the ratio of those who have switched out after running it for awhile would amase you. Because of egt rise + the increased risk of component failure is why I quite using it a couple years ago... ... Plus it only gave me about 30 HP more on the dyno and this was with the largest Bully Dog setup they make.



Doug

 

[boydo]

I totally agree propane is a fuel, the idea behind it is to control the burn of diesel fuel during combustion. If you have a truck with say a hx-35 or even a B-1, drag comp, 100hp + injectors, propane is not for you - it will enrichen the blend causing higher egt's and will do little for power. On the other hand you had a B-1, 40-80 hp injector, ez or even a comp, propane would be usefull for economy and probably 40-60 hp with a minimal gain in egt's( considering running bigger injectors to make up for 60 hp would make more egt's). At one time I had an hx-35w16, rv275, diablo puck, exuast and intake, I had a 78 hp increase when using propane for 381 hp rwhp @ 38 psi boost, and 1300 f. Propane isn't for everybody, and those who plan on using it should be carefull when purchasing it. I got mine from an outfit in Calgary http://www.eeetee.com/digiboost/blurb.htm he researched the system for years before it was released. I guess what I'm trying to point out is that in order for it to work safely it must be properly tuned taking into consideration air density, and fueling parameters - Bully dog and ats have a basic setup that probably works well on alot of trucks but NOT all of them( this is where head gaskets, and compenent damage will happen).

 

[daveg]

Back in early 2001 I was running DD3's, an Edge EZ, and an HX-40. I installed the ATS propane set-up that I had ran on my 96 (with no problems), and blew the head gasket.

My opinion, propane is an excellent additional fuel source that can be turned on and off for gains on engines like the 12v that don't have the ability of electronic fueling.



About the same time I blew my head gasket there was a thread started on TDR about this issue. As it turns out, all of us that had experienced this problem had the ETH.

 

[mhenon]

Propane

I jsut don't believe the sales hype about the average diesel only burning 80% of it's fuel. That can't be right!

I'm getting 24mpg in my Dodge and my wifes Jetta gets over 50mpg on the hwy..... and 20% of the fuel is going out the tailpipe... unburned... . don't think so.

I'll bet that data came from some old study, done in the '50's, from a fleet of city buses on their death bed. Todays direct injected, electronically controled diesel engine has got to be more efficient then that.



Mike

 

[boydo]

The propane assists in the burn of diesel for a more effective burn. For it to work properly on a Turbo engine, by design blessed with a lean air-to-fuel ratio, and can be fed concentrations of LPG up to about 6-8% of the intake air volume.



Introducing LPG gas into the combustion air intake of a diesel engine acts as an accelerant, promoting the even burning of the diesel fuel, and more complete combustion, resulting in more power being produced. Propane by itself will not self-ignite inside a diesel-fuel compression-ignition engine. During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400?C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500?C. When the diesel fuel is atomized into the cylinder under high pressure, it immediately self-ignites (diesel ignites at about 385?C. ), and causes the LPG to burn as well. Since the LPG is in mixture with the air, the flame front from the diesel spreads more quickly, and more completely, including igniting the air/fuel mixture which is in contact with the cylinder walls, which are cool in comparison to the super-heated air inside the combustion chamber. Much of the cleaner burning of the fuel is attributed to this ignition against the "cooler" components of the engine, and accounts for raising the percentage of combustion from a typical 75% for a well-tuned diesel engine running on pure diesel fuel alone, to 85-90% with the addition of LPG. Obviously, this more complete combustion also gives a nice boost in power, with an accompanying increase in fuel economy and reduction of pollutants.



Understanding that it is a very fine line between lots of extra power and a dose of LPG that will render an engine scrap metal in a hurry, so consider carefully before you decide to "turn it up"( it must be tuned properlly to work safely).

 

[RustyJC]

The flash point of propane is 156 degF. The explosive range for propane ranges from 2. 15% (LEL) to 9. 60% (UEL) propane in air. The Federally-required MSDS for propane may be seen HERE.



Rusty

 

[boydo]

flash point is the temp where a hydrocarbon, or petroleum distillate will produce a flammable gas. Auto ignition point is when a ideal mixture( LEL = 2. 4%- UEL = 9. 5%) of lpg to air will ignite at a certain temp which is 493-549 °C.

During the compression stroke, the air/LPG mixture is compressed and the temperature is raised to about 400?C, not enough to ignite the LPG, which has an ignition temperature of about 500?

I should have been more specific. Note : ignition temps on page 2 @ this link. http://www.propanegas.ca/files/Propane properties.pdf.