Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Tone wheel replacement, removing oil pan?

[JSandusky]

Hello everyone. I've been reading the TDR forums for a while and learning a lot about my 98. 5 diesel truck I just got.



Hopefully someone can help me with a few questions I have concerning my truck quiting me while towing my 7,000lb TT this last weekend.



Here's what I know so far:

Driving down road at 60mph, engine makes nasty grinding noise and dies. Pull over, won't start. Has a funny noise while cranking. Towed about 100 miles back home.

Checked the codes and had 2 codes indicating the crank sensor is bad.

Took the crank sensor out and it is chewed up on the end like something has rubbed against it.



From what I've gathered from this forum, it sounds like my crank tone wheel may have came loose. To confirm this and fix it, I need to remove the oil pan. I looked on All Data's website and they idicate the transmission and transfer case has to be removed. They show 8 hours of labor for this!



My question is does anyone have any experience removing and replacing the oil pan in a 3500 4x4 auto? Do you really have to remove the transmission or is there an easier way? Some brief instructions on the way that worked for you would be greatly appreciated!



Thanks in advance!

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

I'd insert a screwdriver or something into the sensor hole first and see if the tone wheel is loose; also use a strong light and mirror to look at it while rotating the engine. Big job to replace; I haven't done it or even looked at a 98. 5-02 crank but I think the tone wheel is pressed on and you will have to remove the crank. Given that probability, you will be better off removing the head for cowl clearance, then removing the short block leaving the transmission in the truck, supported by a cross bar or jack. The reason for removing the trans is to get enough clearance to slide the oil pan back and get it out. You could lift the engine some, and remove the oil pickup for clearance; might be able to avoid removing the transmission. However, that doesn't do the tone ring, so you would probably be back at square one. Sorry. Maybe someone else has done it. . .

 

[JSandusky]

Actually the tone ring looks like it's in 2 pieces from the pictures I've seen and bolts together. I assume this is for the very reason of not having to remove the crank to replace or service it. My best guess at this point is one of the bolts holding the 2 pieces together came loose and let it start grinding against the side of the block and the crank sensor.



If I can get the oil pan off, I think I can fix or replace the tone wheel from underneath the truck.



I really need some input on the methods of removing the oil pan and re-installing it. I'm hoping there is a way of doing this without removing the transmission and transfer case, as the All Data procedure says has to be done.

 

[Thomas]

"I assume this is for the very reason of not having to remove the crank to replace or service it"



Looks to me like it is in two pieces so it can be installed on the crankshaft, whether the crankshaft is in the engine or on the bench. From the drawing in the model year 2000 parts catalog, it looks as though a one-piece tone ring could not clear other parts of the crankshaft.

 

[B.G. Smith]

https://www.turbodieselregister.com...p?s=&threadid=81547&highlight=oil+pan+removal Try the link above. If it doesn't work do a search on "oil pan removal", several instances there. bg

 

[Evan A. Beck]

The crankshaft does not have to be removed for tone wheel replacement.



Don't bother trying to remove the oil pan with the transmission IN the truck. Getting clearance is tough at best. Once you get the motormounts unbolted, you'll have to raise the engine as far as you can get it. It's a PITA, and trying to wrestle the pan back in there without destoying the gasket gets real old, real fast. Removing the transmission is MUCH easier than fighting the pan, pickup tube, and gasket. Don't use any RTV on the gasket, its not needed. Four small dabs are a good idea at the front and back, where the pan is bolted to the timing case and rear crank seal retainer. If you are really looking for a challenge, go ahead and leave the trans in.



As far as I remember, the tone wheel is two pieces, one part is 270° and the other is a 90° section. Its real close to the #6 main bearing cap, which means the cap needs to be removed. Be sure to do all this on a cool engine.

 

[KWentling]

This is a job I did a few months ago. It can be done without removing the transmission and isn't that bad. Doing it a second time I think I could do it start to finish in two or three hours. I have air tools, concrete floor to work on. It was a long drawn out battle the first time diagnosing the problem, ordering parts, waiting for parts, etc. Getting the oil pan off wasn't a problem. I did this on the inlaws truck. Didn't have a 24-valve manual, etc. I highly recommend you get a manual! It would have saved me a ton of time. I've got one now. The tone ring is in 2 pieces and held on with flat head socket allen screws. I didn't have to remove the main bearing cap, either. I cleaned all the screws and holes and put them back in with Lock Tite 242 torqued to 71 in. lbs. per the service manual. You can rotate the crank and get access to all the screws.

I'll try to describe the process, but I don't guarantee I won't forget something, so watch out when doing it! It's pretty straight forward.

First step is to get the bottom of the truck as clean as possible! You will be pulling the pan out the rear and putting it back in the same way and you don't want a bunch of crap falling in it.

Remove the down pipe and air cleaner boot connections from the turbo. Remove air boot connection from air horn on manifold. Remove either the fan, (left hand thread) or the fan shroud. The fan may be loosened with a punch and hammer if it isn't too tight, or you can make wrenches as I did. There is a linkage bracket for the transmission on the driverside frame rail that needs to be freed. I just pulled the bolts out of it. I think that is all you need to remove, but watch as you raise the engine!

I put the front of the truck up on jack stands to gain room to work. The motor mounts are slotted so you only need to loosen the nuts. I put a bottle jack under the front of the pan with a 2x4 block between the jack and pan to raise the engine. I was replacing the oil pan also, due to a damaged drain plug hole, so I wasn't concerned with damaging the pan. I don't think that it hurt it. You could probably jack on the harmonic balancer also. You need to raise the engine about 2 1/2" measured at the motor mount. Once you get it up, block it up with pieces of 2x4s at the motor mounts so you can remove the jack. Remove the bolts from the pan. A 3/8" drive butterfly impact with extensions and a wobble is a big help here! Take note of where the studs go that hold the transmission cooler lines. Once the pan is loose and dropped down, you can get at the oil suction tube bolts. I believe there were two at the flange and two at support brackets. Drop the tube into the pan and you should be able to slide it out the back.

The gasket stayed on the block and we reused it. You might want to have one on hand just in case. Just reverse the process going back together. I put the oil pan with the suction tube in it in a plastic trash bag to help keep it clean when sliding it back in. The suction tube bolts and oil pan bolts all torque to 18 ft. lbs. I think thats it. Any questions, just ask.

Kim

 

[JSandusky]

Wow, Kim, that makes me feel a little better. I was getting REALLY depressed and trying to decide which shop I was going to have it towed to, as I think this job is almost more then I want to tackle myself.



A question. Was your inlaws truck a 4x4? I'm wondering if a 4x4 model might have more problems with oil pan clearance due to the front differiential.

 

[Mundgyver]

The differential is not the problem. Its the cross brace about 1 to 1 and 1/2 inch below the forward section of the pan that is your sticky point, at least that is the problem that I see on my 2001 4x4.

 

[KWentling]

Yes, the truck was a 4x4 with the auto, just like your's. One thing that did occur while the engine was jacked up. (This was over a period of a week, waiting for the new oil pan and for me to have time to do it) The transmission lost about 3 quarts of transmission fluid. It possibly may have leaked out where the dip stick tube enters or maybe there is a vent tube somewhere there? I think it was because the torque converter had drained because it had set so long. The truck was out of commmission for about a month. I refilled the transmission and everything appears to be fine with it.



Kim

 

[JSandusky]

Well your advice on removing the oil pan was good and worked.



Unfortunately my bad luck continues. I have serious internal engine damage. The crank is completely cracked and seperated near rod number 5. The tone wheel was completely gone and in several pieces in the bottom of the oil pan (That would explain why I couldn't feel it with my finger through the sensor port). I reached into the oil pan and retrieved several pieces of tone wheel and other items. It felt like river gravel, there was so many chunks of metal. I felt like puking, but I held it in. After seeing this I knew my effort was fruitless, as the motor is toast, so I didn't finish removing the oil pan. I must say I'm in shock. I bought a Dodge ONLY because of the Cummins engine and in less then 1,000 miles of driving it, it completely blows up.





I guess now I'm looking for a inexpensive engine for my truck. I'll probably post this in a new thread, but does anyone have any suggestions on the best place to get a remanufactured engine or used engine? My injection pump, turbo, and all accessories should be in good shape. In fact the head might be OK too, but I would want it rebuilt before putting it on a new lower end. So I'm looking for a long block or complete engine, either rebuilt or used in good working order. Any pointers or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.....

 

[Mundgyver]

Ouch. You stated that you just got the truck not too long ago and that it was used. My bet would be that the previous owner might not have taken care of the engine as you would have.



My suggestion for a replacement would be to go to Cummins / Onan Re-manufactured engines. You have a block for trade in and the replacement would come with a guarantee. Since you would be the primary owner of this new engine, it's care and feeding would be in better hands than that of the last owner.



My bet is that your satisfaction would be way up on the happy meter also, knowing the condition from the start with a new Cummins.



Good luck on your decision.

 

[KWentling]

Sorry to hear of your bad luck. How many miles were on it? Thats the second self-destruct I've heard of from the tone wheel comming off. Back before this board there was one reported on Mark Chappel's TST board, and that was the first he had heard of, but they were pretty new then. I understand only the '98. 5 and '99s had the crankshaft tone wheel.

You might find a take out of a wreck somewhere, but then you don't know how it has been treated. I thing I would lean towards the Cummins remanufactured also. Someone will chime in with some solid options.



Kim

 

[krs]

How awful. I really don't know what I'd do in your shoes but I might just have the thing towed away and never think about another one of these trucks.



But they are good engines with a long solid record of reliability. You've had some almost unbelievable bad luck.

I guess there's no warranty from Cummins or your seller available to you?



There are engines for sale in ebay almost all the time, and the prices go from low to high. One that I just saw, older than yours, might have enough to get you started if the blocks in these different generations interchange. It's here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2445008447



Another one, newer and much more: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2445961986



Anyway, if you want to try it get into that site more deeply and see if there's anything for you there.



I hope that there's someone in here close to you who has some way of helping you out in this.

 

[BarryG]

Very sorry to hear about this. Checking out Ebay, your local Cummins shop, local papers etc a good palce to start then I would search the web also. One place that comes to mind is www.usdieselparts.com. I was looking for a part once and ran across their website. Seemed to have a fairly extensive line of new or reman engines for diesels.

 

[JSandusky]

The Odometer has a little over 136,000 miles on it. There's no warrentee, it was bought from a used car dealer, as is. The truck seemed to run and sound great, up to the minute it blew up. I'm going to end up with over $20,000 in this truck by the time I replace the engine.



I would have been better off buying a new one or a used one still under warrentee. I've learnt an expensive leason!



Since I still have some good engine parts, such as injection pump, accessories, head??, I suppose I can either use those items on a new engine or if the new engine comes with them, I could sell them. When a core is required, which do they mean exactly? The whole engine exchanged or just the block/head, etc? I guess it depends on what they send you.

 

[krs]

You sure don't need any more bummers but there's something else you might want to consider right now:

Do you know if the transmission has ever been rebuilt? Thing is that the autos in these trucks don't hold up to power mods very well, and on a high milage trans even an Ez can take one over the edge. I'm sure you've seen how much a trans. performance rebuild can cost so maybe the thing to do is think about trying to sell this truck as-is for $10k or so and cut your losses before they go out of hand.

 

[JSandusky]

The auto trans was rebuilt once. I think about 40,000 miles ago, but I don't know for sure. It's working OK now, but I had planned on upgrading/rebuilding it to handle more power. The front seal is leaking a little in it, so I'm sure that a rebuild is in the future for it.



I've ran the thought of selling it through my head, but I can't make myself accept the fact that I'd be loosing everything I've already done to this truck. I've installed 4 gauges, Edge EZ, 6 new tires, new ball joints, new brakes, new steering stablizer, new drag link bar, and front end alignment. I knew all of these items needed done when I bought it, so those wasn't a surprise, but all this cost me about $3,000, increasing the amount I have invested into the truck. Sure a few items can be removed, like gauges and Edge EZ.



I think I will go ahead and get it back going, I just need to find an engine and decide which route to take (rebuild, used, me install, shop install, etc). I've never worked on these engines much, I suppose replacing one is no fun job.

 

[Mundgyver]

With the amount of work you have already done to the overall project, I would be inclined to just get a new engine for it. One thing for sure, you will know every inch of the truck and will be so in tune with it, that if it ever changes its tone, you will know what is wrong without any effort at all.



I wonder if you could get the old engine serial # and see if Cummins has any record of work done to it. I am thinking of history here for your edification.



I would get a new engine for it. You basically would than have a brand new truck with all your other work.



Good luck on your decesion.

 

[Coalsmoke]

I'm not sure where you are located, but up here in BC, you can get a fully remanned engine for $5995CAD, (If I recall that may even be installed price). If you are close, it might be something to consider.