Tools For Timing The 5.9 CTD

[Big_DQ]

Talcum powder, ie baby powder, works great for a little extra grip. One way to spray it onto the shaft is with a soda straw. another way, and the one I use, is to remove the tube from a nasal spray bottle, enlarge the hole on the end of the nozzle slightly, fill the bottle about half way with powder. Then all you have to do is give the shaft a squirt before installing the nut.

Don

 

[Reddog1]

Chalk ???????

STOP! Did I miss something here? If I understand TIM correctly, the suggestion made was to put chalk on the taper shaft before installing the gear. Any substance on the taper will eventually break down and allow the gear to slip. That is why you clean the taper and gear shaft hole.



Wayne

 

[Joe G.]

That's what these pump gurus recommend. Clean the shaft and the gear with brake cleaner to get every speck of dirt and oil off. Then make a couple of thin lines of chalk on the tapered shaft to help the grip. I had not heard the talcum powder thing before, but it makes sense if the chalk line works.

 

[Reddog1]

Hi Joe,



I was a machinist for years, installed many gears for many applications. I would not use the chalk. Think about it, anything on the shaft (especially tapered) will squeeze out. If it did not; we would oil our engines only at time of assembly.



By the by, Cummins Shop in Sacramento uses the Alternator method. The Mechanic said they were not allowed to change timing specs outside of stock, due to smog laws.



Must you have a Delivery valve socket, to remove the Delivery valve?



Can Delivery valve seal be reused?



To change the timing from 13 degrees to 18 degrees, how much do you rotate the gear on the shaft?



Once you find TDC, can you make a crank TDC indicator for future reference?



Wayne

 

[Joe G.]

Wayne,



I have a timing kit I purchased from Miller Tools. It has a special socket to remove the delivery valve. I really don't know how much to rotate the shaft for any degrees. The timing is set according to how much delivery valve lift in milimeters on a dial indicator (came with kit) at TDC. I made an indicator for TDC on my pulley, but I recheck it with the timing pin just to make sure I have it right. Belt and suspenders kind of deal. Oh yeah, I made a timing pin tool out of a brass bolt. It's longer than the plastic one and has a good place to grip it. I pull the plastic one out and put in my home made replacement well lubed with Sil Glide for this. The stock plastic pin is just used to plug up the hole otherwise. I used the barring tool than came with the kit to turn the engine. That works a LOT better than bolts on the crank or the alternator pully. Four feet of extension puts the ratchet in a convenient place so I can just turn it either way easily with my left hand.

 

[Reddog1]

Joe



I am having trouble justifying the cost of the Tool Timing Kit. When I consider the frequency of use, versus the transmission upgrade and other modifications I want to make, it is tough to decide.



My timing pin is tight even before engaging in gear. Your brass pin sounds like a good idea. Looks to me that a pulley indicator lets you know when you are getting close to TDC. The barring tool is available for about $28. 00. That is not too bad. I have over a dozen different types of indicators, so I cannot see buying another. Using 2. 54 cm per inch converts the metric to US. Solving the Delivery valve socket issue will allow me to go forward.



Can you remove the Delivery valve without a Delivery valve socket?



Can Delivery valve seal be reused?



Wayne

 

[Joe G.]

Wayne,



Removing the delivery valve without a socket would probably skin it up. I don't see how you can torque the delivery valve properly without a socket for it. I reused my delivery valve seal because I forgot to get a new one before I timed it. Next time I will remember to get one. So far, so good. It runs good and smooth. I did keep delivery valve parts in a small pan of clean diesel while they were out of the pump.

 

[Don M]

I would say the delivery valves should removed and installed with the proper tool. When I timed mine the delivery valves seal was replaced as well.

I hate to have to go back and redo anything that can be avoided with using a new seal or washer.



I have heard the chalk thing too. Personally I would think the torque could go out of spec after the area is greased up with oil and replaces the chalk. How much? I dont know.

Some folks torque the bolt to just a little more than the 144ftlbs.

Somewhere around 160 area.



Turning up the pump timing is going to increase your fuel economy as well as a few other things. In modified engines the timing should come up to increase the power benefit and help with EGTs'.



Don~

 

[Jeff H]

As far as cleaning the shaft. I geuss I don't quite see how its done. Isn't the gear still covering most of the shaft even when its loose? So how would I get the muck out then. Or are we primaraly only worried about the threaded part of the shaft.

Also what are these tools gonna cost me from Cummins.

A socket

dial indicator

adapter

Barring tool

seals

Next thing to worry about. My sig.

Thanks John E.

 

[bighammer]

It would be a good project to combine with the KDP tab fix. With the timing cover off, the gear could be removed and thoroughly cleaned. The thought of putting a powdery substance in my engine doesn't sound good.



I plan to buy or borrow (rent?) the tools soon, but will probably need a heater by the time I get a round tuit.



Also, is there enough cam lift for extrapolating the higher timing settings? At some point the follower is not on the ramp, but on the top of the lobe so the rate of travel would change. I'm not going that high, (maybe 15. 5 or 16*) but just a thought I had for those who do. Just something to check out.

 

[illflem]

Miller does sell all the different components of their Cummins timing kit separately. Owning your own timing kit isn't worth it for most folks as it isn't something you need to do much, cheaper to pay to have it done. Problem is finding someone who will set it different from Cummins specs.

 

[Joe G.]

Based on the price quoted to me at the Peterbilt shop it was cheaper to have them do it if I wanted to do it once. About $40 difference. However, I probably will time mine more than once while I have it. That means that the tool kit is cheaper than two trips to Peterbilt and I don't have to argue with them about where I want it timed. I seriously doubt that a Cummins, big rig, or Dodge shop can be found in CA that will time one of these out of specs. This way I can experiment and see where mine runs best with the best MPG.

 

[Reddog1]

GREAT POST

You guys are giving good info to those of us who do not know .



JOE GEORGE, you post tells me a Delivery Valve Socket is necessary. Keeping the delivery valve parts in a small pan of clean diesel while they are out sounds like a good idea. I think you are right about finding someone to set timing other than stock. I too intend to experiment with the timing for both MPG and power. I think timing and MPG are not given the proper attention.



DON, from my experience as a machinist, you are on track with your thought on the chalk. Clean and dry with the proper torque is IT . I would probably hurt someone’s feelings if I really offered my thoughts on the chalk issue, and that is not my intent. As I stated in my previous post, I have worked many years as a machinist, and I base my chalk comments on experience, not from what I have heard.



bighammer, if I am correct, the cam lift needed is as follows: 49 states Auto & Cal EGR, 15. 5 degrees = . 1890 inches and 16. 0 degrees = . 1929 inches. 49 states manual, 15. 5 degrees = . 2165 inches and 16. 0 degrees = . 2205 inches. Maybe someone can tell us the maximum lift. It appears 20 degrees on a 49 state manual is . 252 inches.



Jeff H, these guys are giving us info I could not find on other threads. I have read other post they have made, and I have yet to find bad info on any subject. Last week, Cummins in Sacramento Cal quoted me $600 for the Timing Tool Kit. As I recall, Miller wanted about $250 for the same kit. In my case, it appears I may only need the Delivery Valve Socket ($$?) and probably the Barring Tool ($27. 00). One of these guys will have to tell us the cost of the delivery valve seals.



Illflem (Bill?), I agree with you on owning verses buying. I would like to say cost is no object, but my wife disagrees, and if anyone knows everything, she does . However, due to my existing tools, I may only need part of the kit.



Wayne



P. S. Please check my numbers, and correct me if I am incorrect.

 

['956Wheel]

CHALK

Reddog,



I must respectfully disagree on your thoughts on chalk. I have been a machinist for 25+ years and have been taught by the old hands that often a tad of chalk or the like will assure that a taper will lock up and remain so. Do not fear this being in there as its not like pouring a spoonful of dust in there just a neat little bit, afterall Loctite is often used in assembly of machinery with no side effects. The way it was explained to me by a metalurgist is that the chalk will take up the voids, (microscopic) thus causing more surface area of contact... Loctite does the same thing when used on press-fits as well as tapered fits.



Mike

 

[illflem]

Here's the parts of the timing kit Miller lists separately.



MLR-6840 pump valve socket $41. 54

MLR-6842 dial indicator $22. 48

MLR-7471B barring tool $52. 80

 

[Reddog1]

to chalk or not to chalk

Mike,



We will have to agree to disagree on this subject. Pros and cons aside on the value of the chalk, why would we change oil and filter if we are going to put the abrasive directly in the engine?



It is not uncommon to use chalk on tapers to check for the proper fit. I do not think it would work on this application. I am sure we could agree that the factory tolerances on the tapers could possibly allow the gear to slip.



I will stand by my original argument, clean shaft and gear taper with correct torque equals no slip. If it slips, one or more of the previous is incorrect.



illflem, sure is a radical difference between Cummins and Miller on their tools. Cummins = $600/kit, $28 for barring tool, Miller = $240/kit, $53 for barring tool.



Wayne

 

[BigYellowIron]

You can get the sp-500 tool group fron snap on for like two bills less the barring tool.



Adam

 

[Diver-Dave]

Reddog,



I purchased the SPX kit and also bought 2 delivery valve seals (playing it safe) for my CA '97. Once disassembled, I noticed there were no seals in my CA pump. I don't know if this is the same for your '96 but I understand that 96/97 CA pumps are virtually identical. email me and I'll send you one of the seals just in case yours needs one. It'll save you $12. 00 - $20. 00. Unbelievable dealer price for what amounts to a skinny washer.



Dave