Torque converter or valve body?

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we have been paying prox $300 for a cummins trans core-no guarantee and up to $500 for a core with guaranteed good hard parts, shafts drums ect. would have to replace the soft parts-if you are going to get one and overhaul it yourself let me know and i will help you if you have questions when you get it and open it up, probably have an extra book you can borrow if need be.
dave

 

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A-bomb:

Your description of Joe Donnelly being
a "shama of information" is right on!
I talked to him on the phone a few
nights ago about these 370's and he
helped me so much! He definitely has a "friendly and sincere" way of
explaining things to you, while at
the same time making you feel your
phone call is important to him!
He has helped alot of other members
too including "Koa Man"(who has really helped me)and this organization is
lucky to have him as a member and a
friend!

Thanks for everything Joe!


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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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Goer'
TST sells a heavy duty rebuild kit. Do you have any experience with the kit? Or, is another kit reccomended?

Thanks

 

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i have no problem with any kits as long as the clutches are name brand stuff BUT i would get the trans first and dissasemble it. it would not suprise me if some of the clutches were in good shape. if i had a good used clutch plate or band that had lots of miles on it and the piece was in good condition, ie the splines and the lining then i would use that clutch plate or band over-the best one is one that has proven itself, and if nothing is wrong with it why not reuse it-----i have taken several new clutch fibres (and these were name brand, but i can't say the brands for obvious reasons) that the lining was not glued on properly and you could push them off with air or by your hand. I don't trust parts until they have 30,000 to 50,000 miles on them, and as we have warranties on some of our stuff up to 100,000 miles we do find out when parts don't last. so what i would do is get the trans apart, call me and i will show you how to check the parts then if you want i can sell you only the parts you need and nothing that you don't need. we buy all our parts in bulk so if you need only the seal kit and one set of clutches we can do that.
dave

 

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Peek inside a converter</

 

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Bill,

Excellent pictures. Thanks for the post. Did yall do real hydrodynamic engineering on the stator plan form, or was it good old engineering trial and error? How much fine tunning of the stall speed can you do?

Goer'
I am studying my 95 Service manual on transmission rebuild. Looks like I may need a new tool or two. (I hate buying tools #ad
Can you reccomend any other rebuild manuals?

Thanks

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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve



[This message has been edited by A-bomb (edited 09-13-2000). ]

 

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special tools are nice but if you let me know what manual you are in and what tool they are talking about i can probably tell you how to do it without the special tool.
dont take the overdrive section apart without talking to me or someone----dont want to see you get hurt.

 

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TD, im sorry i have to disagree with you, im not sure where you are getting your transmission information from .

THE PRESSURE LOC, TORQUE LOC, TC COMBINATION is a recipe for torque converter clutch failure. In case you are not aware i deigned the pressure loc. It was originally called a brake loc as it was designed for enhancing exhaust brake application during de-excelleration ONLY!

The stock main line pressure regulator valve is un-altered with the addition of a pressure loc.

The pressure loc can only tap into the TV (throttle valve)circuit,in other words it can only enhance the pressure that is available to it at that given throttle position.

By installing the torque loc, you are manually forcing lock up, and if you accelerate hard you will damage your TC clutch lining as the torque loc will not allow the TC clutch to dis-engage under hard exceleration. The factory system dis-engages lock up under hard exceleration.

In my opinion from a transmission technician's point of view the torque loc in the up position in torque loc mode is one of the worst devices ever built in respect to TC clutch longevity.


[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 09-13-2000). ]

 

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Bill
First of all I am a transmission neophyte. So, I was trying to understand hydroshematics on pages 21-131 to 21-140.

If the pressure lock is simply an accuator ehancing line pressure on the throttle valve , does this also increas line pressure in the boost and switch line going to TC. If I am correctly tracing circuit will this cause harm to the TC? Or, are you saying manually locking the TC with a torque loc under heavy loads and low speed is bad becaue it is designed to slip a little?

Thanks for reply.

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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, AFC spring kit, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve

[This message has been edited by A-bomb (edited 09-14-2000). ]

 

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Increasing your line pressure will not harm your TC clutch lining. However it can cut off the lube circuit. That is why most valve body & shift kits increase your TC lube circuit(full time converter charge).

The pressure loc cannot supply adequate pressure to prevent TC clutch slippage under hard excelleration. The TC once engaged should not slip.

The torque loc because it keeps the TC clutch engaged does not allow the TC clutch
to disengage under hard excelleration.

Think of the standard transmission in the Dodge Cummins, they have been known to destroy the clutch discs, can you imagine trying to hold the power of the cummins engine with the automatic transmissions TC clutch lining.

If you look at the picture of our TC design you will notice the steel stator. It is the function of fluid coupling to deal with the power of the Cummins Engine, not the TC clutch lining.

The reason why most people install torque locs and mystery switches is because most milled stator converters only have an efficiency rating of approx. 69% to 78%.

If you look at the #1 milled stator in our pics, it only had an efficiency rating of 69%. #2 pic was the open milled style stator it had an efficiency of 78 %. #3 our steel stator has an efficiency rating of 91%.

There is no way any TC clutch lining can handle the power of the Cummins no matter how much you up the pressure.

The steel stator has a proven track record in the performance industry of withstanding
2000+ HP. The steel stator style of converter is used in the Bruno transmission combination which is actually a lenko transmission with a TC in front of it instead of a manual clutch.

Hope this helps explain a little. Its nice to see you guys read the manuals, but keep in mind that they do not cover all the current updates and what is available in the after market.

Also I am one of those guys that believe that special tools are definately required when building a transmission.

End play clearances, clutch pac clearances, the OD section in this unit should not be tackled without specialty tools no matter what anyone tells you.

The OD direct fibres are extremely difficult to work on without special tools.

Some people are not aware that there have been many subtle updates to this transmission over the years, that are not covered in your manual. Example OD direct fibres have been changed from 8 fibres to 10 fibres. I actully use a clutch combination that is a mixture of the 95 and the 98. I use a planetary gear from a 1996 Dodge Ram.

And the 1995 Dodge Ram Dodge uses a mechanical governor, by lightening this governor you can actually get later shifts without increasing governor pressure.

There are a lot of subtle tricks within this transmission, example, changing the 3. 8 apply lever to a 4. 2 ratio lever, that you can find in your 6 cylinder gas Dodges.

This enables more holding capicity on the 2nd gear band without increasing pressure.

Superior Technologies also sells a 2nd gear re-inforced band strutt that is also available at most local transmission shops.

These are just a few examples of the changes not covered by the manual.

Bill

 

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Bill,

Great explenation. Thanks for taking the time to write the lengthy reply.

In summary, it looks as though you have discovered that a super effecient hydrodynamic transfere of power eases the job of the clutch pack? This, coupled with a properly designed and set-up valve body will maintain shifting pressure at proper levels. Therefore a torque loc is not necessary.

After reading your explanation and looking at manual, it seems to me as though it is pretty important to match the valve body to the torque converter. In other words dont upgrade one without upgrading the other.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

How durable are stock front and rear bands? Would they be adjusted differently after proper transmission mods? Also, if TC is properly modified would'nt this affect the proper RPM for TC lock solenoid from PCM, thereby creating a need for mystery switch, or torque loc?

Thanks again for your informative replies.

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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, AFC spring kit, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve

 

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Another question,,,

When matching your TC stall point, should'nt it be matched to a point just before actual peak torque of engine? This may be difficult to guess at without a dyno run - post bombing.

Thanks.

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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, AFC spring kit, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve

 

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A-BOMB
If a TC is functioning properly it eliminates the need for devices like the torque loc & mystery switches. We do calibrate our valve bodies to shift much later in the RPM band to try and keep the TC in fluid longer. If you have to make to make a decision based on a budget, always choose valve body upgrades over TC.

Our stall point is not something we take into first consideration. What we did was match the converter to the Cummins camshaft. The TC design produces a stall speed of 1750 with 255 rear wheel HP. The same converter will produce a stall speed of 2100 RPM'S with 360 rear wheel HP.

Our stall testing is not like your typical stall speed testing that you guys may have read about.
We bring the TC up to full stall and full boost capabilities and hold for 5 seconds.

The steel stator design will hold the power of the Cummins, we have tested it for as long as 10 seconds under full boost.

Some of these stall tests were witnessed by TDR members in San Jose. The converter held.

It did not fold over with the Cummins power.

Dyno testing is more suited for HP rating than TC evulation. A typical dyno test is where a vehicle is brought up to speed, slowly loaded to a set RPM or vehicle speed and held there.

To accurately gauge a TC's performance you must measure excelleration rate, since the dyno does not measure excelleration rate it does not make a suitable tool for measuring TC fluid coupling in my opinion.

I prefer the OEM bands and clutches for the Dodge Diesel Ram. I have been building drag racing transmissions for a long time, and have used most of the aftermarket clutches and bands, while i have built some Rams using these clutches i would never use them in a Ram that is used for towing.

Raybestos makes both the OEM clutches and the blue plate clutches that some of you may have read about. I have had numerous conversations with Manley Tate production manager for Raybestos aftermarket and to quote a recent article they've written about performance clutches"you do not send in a race horse to do the work of a Clydesdale, and vice versa.

I know some of you may have been buying these clutches for your Dodge Ram,but unless you are planning on turning your Ram into a Drag Truck or use for Promos only, i wouldnt suggest it.

Sorry for the long winded reply.
I hope it helps.
Bill


[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 09-15-2000). ]

 

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go to www.gbtransmissions.com
here you can view an engineers chassis dyno and equivelant trans dyno.
the difference between an engineers chassis dyno and mechanics chassis dyno is that the engineers chassis dyno can measure acceleration rates from 12 mph to 120 mph, but don't be confused, this is acceleration under full load, it is NOT an accelerometer. you set the dyno for the vehicle weight and it will give an actual road load so you can measure acceleration rates and duplicate the test time after time. you can also load the vehicle at any given speed and lock it in if so desired. it will simulate uphill, downhill and level driving. horse power and torque readings are in 1/2 horse power or 1/2 lb. ft. increments up to 2400 lb. ft. .

not pictured is a 5 axis cnc milling machine, this allows us to take a stock stator that has blades that are larger than needed and correctly mill the stator without removing any of the deflection point. the only changes to the deflection point is the contour of the face. with a 5 axis machine you can properly and economically MILL the stator. this makes for a very efficient converter, couple that to our 75 sq. in. area converter clutch and you have the best of all worlds. original lining area is prox 35 sq. in. and some modified linings are prox 47 sq. in. the lining of a manual transmission clutch for heavy duty pick up has a lining area of prox 73 sq. in.

 

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Great explenations Dave and Bill,

Thanks for lenghty reply.

Here is a another question. If some one has time to answere.

What does a Tansgo kit do to the valve body?



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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, AFC spring kit, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve

 

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A-bomb:

I know this is going to be "a little
off this subject"... . but how do you
like the performance of the 14cm
housing on your truck?

Did you feel a slower response as
compared to the 12cm housing?

Thanks!

-------
John_P.

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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I have not made up my mind yet, as I am still fine tunning

However, my initial impressions are favorable. My boost times are fair(about 3 sec, but stock transmission is really sliping), and EGT's hold while loaded and boost is up (all the way up to density altitude of 12000 feet). If I loose boost in traffic on a pass my EGT's go up pretty fast - but this is in part do to a poorly performing transmission. I still need to complete transmission modifications (as you can tell from all the discussions on this post)

The 215 injectors helped lowered my EGTS about 100 degrees for same speed/boost and gave me pretty good low end. I have my AFC leaned to the max for smoke and altitude reasons. Boost times with 14 are a bit faster with richer AFC and black smoke.

My stock airbox keeps sucking down the suction gauge, so I surmized I need more air for the 14cm. No restrictions in box inlet and K&N always clean. The Pscotty should give me proper amount of air, which should lower egt's and increase boost rate of 14cm turbo.

I talked to Joe D. about air intake and he said his stock box is plenty good. His engine really sucks a lot of air, so I am wondering if there is a change in the size of air inlet opening to airbox for later models? Mine started out as a 160hp automatic and I think His started as a 1996 215hp 5spd. This all of couser will affect 14cm turbo.

Finally, after instaling Pscotty I may unclog my CAT. This will also help with gas flows and affect 14 cm performance.

DBR had some good information on his mods. He went from 14, to 16, back to 12cm and JRE 4" exhaust, #8plate and 300hp injectors. I think he was also trying to control smoke. His is a 5sp. So my final mods will probably be different. An automatic will give my turbo time to spool up, vs a manual where your left foot controls the slpage rate.

I also read in a post somewhere that Peirs and Joe D. agreed that a 14cm is an excellent choice for automatics in the 300 to 320 hp range, which is where I am headed.

Sorry to not be able to give a clearer answer.

It is not always easy to sort out mods for your truck. Everyone drives different and has different needs and goals - kinda like investing. But to me 100% of the fun is getting there. What will happen whine I arrive at the perfect 1995 autmatic for high altituded driving and 4,000lb load? Buy another truck of course and start over!

ends.


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1995 4X4 std cab 12 valve, original owner, 100k miles, banks stinger plus (14cm turbo, 3 1/2" exhaust, EGT and Boost guage, #7 torque plate in TST lingo, 215 injectors, AFC spring kit, Pscotty air on the way, 3. 54 rear, 17. 5" American Racing aluminum wheels, Mickey Thompson MTX's, Rancho's and Helwig on the way, Starcraft camper and assundry dodad's. Only thing faster than a 12 valve is my Ducati 4 valve

 

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A-bomb:

Thanks for answering my question the
best way you could considering your
present circumstances.

I will have my 370 injectors in by
the end of this next week. After that
I will decide on my next move. I
still can't get that truck out of
my mind that I drove at the Nevada
rally with the 16cm housing!! Man
that thing was terrible off the
line as I said earlier.

Your post on this "Torque converter
or valve body" subject really
generated alot of response!
I know I sure have picked up
alot!

Like you said A-bomb, "100% of
the fun with these trucks is
getting there"... ...
I couldn't agree with you more!
----------
John_P.

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Pump Mods, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

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From all that I have read the 370 injectors will give instant response, but can be a little smokey. However, you can probably adjust the smoke out of them.

I hope they work out for you.

I am also impressed with all the response on the post. This is one of the best websites I have been to. People look out for each other, they are responsive, curtious, and knowledgeable.

Thanks to all for the responses!

[This message has been edited by A-bomb (edited 09-17-2000). ]

 

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A-Bomb,
I have managed to get most of the smoke out of the 370s. I originally put in the soft AFC spring and had it tightened up all the way with the AFC housing all the way back. Still have more smoke than I would like when loaded or towing. Wasn't bad when empty. Yesterday I changed to the med. spring, now have the AFC housing all the way forward and the star wheel turned all the way toward the engine. I am very happy with the smoke control now. Minimal on take offs and you just get a strong puff if you go heavy on the throttle and then it is just very light smoke. Initial take off is still very very good. I will probably try the 16cm housing next. I slid the plate back slightly and that helped EGTs quite a bit. I love the extra tight converter now that I have the power to pull it.