Torque Converter

[tony1461571]

I am new to this bombing thing so Ineed some imput.

I'm getting an E-Brake,a powermax-3,and a heavy duty shift kit from TST. I did talk to Mark over there and he said that I shouldn't need a new Torque Converter. The Valve Body would be enought.

What is the thoughts on this subject out there? Just the FACTS mam! #ad

 

[Evan A. Beck]

You will need a TC, plain and simple. It is only a matter of time. The stock one will last a while, but with added power, and the use of the E-Brake, it's life will be significantly reduced. Keep an eye on the fluid, and change it AT LEAST 2 times per year, or ever 30,000 miles.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

I love the word shouldnt, well i for one definately dis-agree with Mark.

First thing to keep in mind, the torque converter is directly affected by hp and engine torque. The more hp you have the higher the heat generated by the tc.

Guess what the number one killer of the automatic transmission is? HEAT!

Guess what the #2 killer of the automatic transmission is ? LACK OF LINE PRESSURE!

Guess what the #3 killer of the automatic transmission is ? MODIFIED ENGINES!.

#4 ? - EXHAUST BRAKES.

I definately recommend you do a little research on these topics,the guys on this site have asked a multitude of questions on these very topics.

You will be amazed at the wealth of information contained on these archives.

My personal advice to you above all else is this,

STAY AWAY from stupid devices that keep the tc clutch locked up under hard acceleration or heavy use.

When choosing a tc DO NOT let anyone sell you a milled stator converter. They are a obseltete. They generate tremendous amounts of heat under load, lose fuel economy under load. If anyone tells you they are going to continue to mill the oem stator and that is what they are selling you,get it in writing so that you can have your money back if they go away from milling the oem stator.


Bill
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[Fred Swanson]

20 FAN, a VB, E-brake, sounds like towing potential.
You will want a TC, and one that really works. Anyone in your area have a modified transmission, so you can see for yourself?

By all means, do a search and read. Doing just the VB is like doing half of the job, guess what, it'll perform half as good as if you had done the whole job.

High efficiency TC's compliment a good VB, setup for towing.


------------------
Fred Swanson
Co-Owner
Canyon State Components, LLC
www.canyonstatecomponents.com

'00 QC,SB,4x4,Auto,3. 54 w/LSD,Trailer Package, Tow Package, DTT's VB & TC

 

[BRoth]

Milled stators are more efficient than the stock stators. They will continue to be used in the industry due to the lower cost, the milled designs have been improved over the years and are more efficent than stock stators. Take a look at the graphs on this page http://www.bd-power.com/ram/product.php?pn=Torque%20Convertors&tt=ram
There is no doubt that a hand built stator is more efficient but is the extra 2% efficiency worth the money for the convertor plus the money for the enhancements required to be made to the engine to handle the stator design? Some say yes but then what have we done to improve the lock up clutch problem?

How did we get into a stator design any way wasn't the question related to the lock up clutch and the pressure that was being applied to hold it.

Wouldn't it be best to have lower pressures with better clutch holding power?

BD is presently on our final testing of our new Billet convertor cover that has double the clutch surface of the stock unit.

Performance valve bodies have there benifits, take a look at this page for details and graphs. http://www.bd-power.com/ram/product.php?pn=Transmission%20Valve%20Bodies&tt=ram

Brian@bd-power

 

[Archive]

<font color=blue>BRoth -

Nice fancy graphs, would you like me to make some too? Where is the formula used to compute your effciency?? That is the most important part. All your graphs mean nuthing without a means to check it.

I know of a converter with more then double the stock lining and is not a heavy billet cover.

 

[BRoth]

Sorry to up set you guys. The testing to get the information for the graphs was done on our Mustang dyno with the engine placed under a constant load at the rpms specified. The convertor was in a fluid coupling and then locked up.

The graphs reflect our convertor as of September 2000 if you had a earlier convertor they were not as efficient.

I am sorry you and likely others had got our products that were designed before we changed personnel and the direction of the transmission department in May 2000. Our current products have come a long way and we will continue the growth with the release of the new Billet Cover, new cast aluminum stator etc.

I know it will take some time to prove it to the market but if you give us the chance and take another look.

BD has created a lot of products from scratch. We do extensive testing and compare it to other products. The company has been built by our people. Piers, Wayne, Steve, Pat, Andrew, Chris, Len. When do I stop naming outstanding technical minds that truly care about what they do every day.

BD has never negated taking care of a customer that has a problem. Arlan isn't that so?


ps The reason for the Billet cover (not so heavy as you think) is for the additional clutch surface, less warping and that the market needs new front covers because the old covers are warping and covers are needed!

Brian@bd-power

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Well I hate to admit it but Mr. Roth your graph is definitely better than ours, (oh that’s right we don’t have one). This graph propaganda kind of reminds me of the new Duramax commercial. Some of you may have seen it, it’s the one where the Duramax is pulling that monster ship out of the ocean.

Kat, if you wouldn’t mind helping me out a little bit please, can you please make me a graph that is as nice as Mr. Roth’s graph the numbers don’t really matter as the customers cant verify them anyway.

Mr. Roth, I have always been accused of having a BIG MOUTH, so I guess we are at the point were words and graphs and written propaganda just wont cut it.

I propose the time has come to put OUR MONEY instead of the customer’s money where our mouths are.

Here is DTT’S CHALLENGE, BD customers presently driving trucks with the milled stator converter that your graph advertises is 95% efficient against customers driving DTT’s custom engineered steel stator at 91% efficiency. We will use real customers, real towing situations, real driving conditions. Comprably power up graded equipped trucks, hp to hp, gear ratio to gear ratio, tire size to tire size.

If as you say your converter is 95% efficient and has a milled stator (lol) I have everything to lose
don’t I (. LOL)

Any of my customers reading this please feel free to step up, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE IN FULL
If after driving a BD customers truck with a milled stator converter YOU FEEL theirs performs more efficiently.

How about it Mr. Roth are you willing to put up or ?????

Any BD customers out there interested in this challenge, you guys have the trucks , you guys have the tc’s in the trucks, and im sure you guys know how to find each other.

We don’t even need to be involved, all Mr. Roth and I have to do is write the cheques.

So Mr. Roth you willing to put your money where your graph is (LOL)?

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology.

 

[LSMITH]

It seemms that there is a little tension between you two. It benefits the rest of us by driving things forward. You have to love competition and capitalism in general.

 

[arlan]

Brian,
Yes, B-D did get right on my problem and has been fair in their dealings with me. I have just never been satisfied with the product.
Arlan

 

[sdalton]

#ad

 

[tony1461571]

I want to thank everyone for there imput you told me what I already new that I needed to do I just had to have confurmation on it.

I know there are differant ones that I can buy. I think that I will just go with the one that TST offers it should do the job.

sdalton how do you get those little guys on your post. Thanks again fellow TDR's

 

[K_Arts]

Maybe this is not the right time to say this but, I do have to throw in my $. 02.

Bill, I don't have your VB and TC installed YET{/B]. But I have enough faith and trust in you..... that you tell me when and where and I will be there on your side for the tow off.

NO offense intended to you at all Mr. Roth, it is just that I have talked to Bill quite a bit and he has always had an answer for all of my questions... along with proof to back up his words. Bill has proven himself to me, both by his Great customer service and how proud his customers are.

Kev

Kev

 

[BRoth]

There is one apparent thing to me. The method that is being used to attain the % of efficiency is different between what I will refer to as the BD 6L series milled stator and DTT's hand made steel stator.

I would suggest that both stators are put through the same test and the result will be posted.

The technology behind a hand built stator is proven time and time again. It is a technology that has been designed on the track for many years. I would wager a bottle (rare thing from me) that your stator shows 97% at the same test our shows 95%.

We do have a hand built unit to day, some of you saw it in Long Beach. But it is not what we will be releasing, our new style of stator that will compete with the hand built steel unit is still a couple of months of. It is a big project. It will be worth the wait.

Back to the test of the stators. As I mentioned the testing procedure we used showed a consistent result, we also ran the test by having the convertor locked up and then unlocking it. But we found that the convertor showed it’s worst efficiency when run from a fluid coupling to a lock up. How about we do it both ways.

The Mustang Dyno we have installed is the best they make its program is current, I have electronic computer technicians that run it. Bill never thought I would say this but I invite you to be there during the tests. I have an ISB 4x2 that will make it easy to change the convertors out.

Let’s do the test, it would be good for all. It will set a standard how to test convertor fluid coupling that can be duplicated around the country.

Brian@bd-power

 

[arlan]

That's right Kat, we don't drive or tow with graphs. I had B-D milled stator converters plus all there other enhancement gadgets in my truck until I drove a truck with a real converter in it. Thanks to Bill Kondolay I now have a transmission that really works. I thought for a minute about sell my B-D converter, pressure lock and torque lock but I don't have any one hate that much, so that stuff is now part of the county land fill. Arlan

 

[Bill Kondolay]

BRoth,
Thank you very much for your kind offer of using your Dyno for testing purpose, however I think you forgot exactly to whom you are speaking. R& D takes place in many forms I suppose and I never will be a party to any testing done in the forum you suggest or that you are a part of .

I cant believe that you of all people would dare to propose this to me ,have you forgotten the day I quit was when Piers left for May Madness with a SUNCOAST converter in his truck flying BD colors.

Thanks anyway for your kind offer, I have no interest in competing with one of my own converters. When the reverse engineering process is complete as you say in a few months this point is moot isn’t it?

Timing is everything isn’t that how you put it Mr. Roth, what happens to the guys that have been buying milled stator converters for past 6 months, remember them, the ones that have been faithful to the dealers and the milled stator converters because they were led to believe by all the appropriate charts , graphs etc. that their purchase was the best for their application.

I already know that the tc’s used in your promo trucks are not what your customers buy so thanks again for the offer.

And so you don’t think this is personal, Suncoast, Dunrite and Protorque, they can have the same opportunity to prove the milled stator does what you guys have been advertising to them to do all along.

So DTT customers I say again, MONEY BACK GUARANTEE if you guys drive your buddies or whoever’s truck that has a milled stator and you feel that their TC is more efficient than yours.

No charts , no graphs, no Dynos , no influence from me or our organization.

For those of you that want to view the milled stator vs the steel stator we are discussing , http://www.dieseltrans.com/DTTech/torqueconverters.html


Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology



[This message has been edited by Bill Kondolay (edited 01-08-2001). ]

 

[Fred Swanson]

One has to ask themselves, why is BD changing their design? Why is it their design will be similar to DTT's.

It also seems that testing TC efficency after unlocking a locked converter isn't the best test.
Why not from a dead stop up to lockup, that is testing the TC only, not after it has matched engine to transmission speed.


Oh yes, I will put my DTT setup up against any other's. Plus, go one step further. Find matched trucks, and pull the same load in a distance and time test.

------------------
Fred Swanson
Co-Owner
Canyon State Components, LLC
www.canyonstatecomponents.com

'00 QC,SB,4x4,Auto,3. 54 w/LSD,Trailer Package, Tow Package, DTT's VB & TC

 

[BRoth]

Yes we do have a lot of respect for other convertor manufacturers. Your convertor stator that is made by one of our suppliers we had when you were with us deserves respect. TCS whom builds your convertor has been building race convertors for many years. I remember when he came out and instructed you and me on how the lock up clutch actually works. He also spoke to us about the stator design, we then discussed in our tech meetings, and then you left and guess what came out of your door a few months after.

As far as competing with one of you’re own convertors. Maybe I wasn’t clear. The convertor we will use will be one of the milled stators, not ones you have pictures of, and you do not have our 6L stator in those pictures.

Our new stator will be nothing like yours. Yours is hand built ours will be cast aluminum. You know something like that Ford stator you showed a few months back that every one was impressed with.

You keep on referring to what happens to the guys that bought today’s technology 6 months from now. Can I ask you what happens to your customers that bought your convertor that has a good fluid coupling but still has the stock lock up clutch design? I’m sure you have a superior lock up clutch design in mind. You have been looking for a Billet cover; it was in a post a few months back. What are you going to offer your old customers?

The new BD convertors will be superior to what we have now; they will be more expensive and designed for a high hp market. Our less expensive BD6L convertor will be targeted at the market up to 270 rear wheel power, those that want the BD Convertor with the Billet cover, 2 clutch piston, cast aluminum stator will have to pay the price, about the same as yours presently goes for.

The industry needs a standard test that they can use through out the country. The method I am proposing is a good gauge, it’s not the only one but we can graph it. Why use different trucks use the same one. Its much more accurate.

Guess if you don’t want to be present when we run the test on your convertor versus the BD 6L that is up to you. The test will be run though and we will graph it for you.

Seat of the pants driving can’t determine hp, torque etc why should it be able to test convertor efficiency. As far as a race is concerned sure I got a 12V that you can put your truck up to.

Maybe take a look at the Tulare sled pull, how did Piers do with our BD6L convertor. Or how about Mike at AutoWurks with the 11-12 second ¼ mile (sorry Mike forget the exact figure and know you have beat that time again. ) he did that with our BD6L convertor.

Our trucks are all running our convertors, do they always run them. Nope we try others out and buy the way can I buy one directly from you to test. You would make more money selling directly to me; I’ll pay retail.

Is any one interested?

Brian@bd-power

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Brian,

Let’s cut to the chase, you are obviously not interested in the challenge. I cant say I blame you.
You know the score.

As for Steve, and Daryl from ATG that builds your converters, I have known each of them for a very long time.

I have know Steve for over 18 years , we grew up in this industry together, and as for Darryl , he has been a friend of mine for over 8 years. He personally sponsored my racecar for over 3 years.

I have a great deal of respect for both of these guys.

As far as the Ford stator goes it’s a very impressive piece, maybe you should take it out of your Dodge ad in the back of the TDR magazine, I’m sure it was not your intent to mis-lead the dodge ram owners or imply that it was what they were getting (LOL) , kinda like those graphs and Dyno tests.

I can see this conversation is an absolute waste of my time as you already admitted that milling the OEM stator is obsolete.

I can only wonder what guys are thinking that are driving around with these milled stator converters in their trucks that trusted guys like you to provide them with the best product for their rams.

As you have admitted these steel stators have been around for 12-15 years. No diesel supplier wanted to build these converters as they cost more to adapt, develop and build.

Now you guys are forced to keep up because DTT forced the issue and customers can tell the difference when they drive the trucks.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology.

 

[tony1461571]

Gentlemen

Brian and Bill do you two have a pair of boxing gloves to put on? It may be a better way to do battle. You know I didn't ask this question only to have two opposing suppliers come in and bang each other around.

For me the uninformed consumer this only tends to confuse me and IT DOSEN'T HELP ME TO MAKE AND INFORMED DECISION OR A PURCHASE. So the next time you see a post like this use the
e-mail to sell your product and not this forum
Thank you Tony Rodgers. #ad