Torque Converter

[arlan]

Piers,

What converter did you have in your truck when you made that pull in Tulare?

Arlan

 

[Piers]

The 6L series that we currently sell & will continue to sell even after the new one is finished. A lot of people won't pay $1000. 00 or more for a tc & I have a feeling that by the time this new tc is finished it will be right up there in price.

------------------
Piers, BD engine R&D

 

[tony1461571]

We Mopar muscle,You are sadly mistaken if you or anyone thinks that I am buying into this BS! I never thought that a shift kit would be all I needed. I just asked for some input. Because I was told by a vendor that was all he felt would needed. And then two other vendors jumped in to fight with oneanother.

I and this only made me unsure which tc would be the best to buy. In my opinon,
(and it is only mine) both Bill and Brian have acted like little kids fighting back and forth. And this isn't the first time this has happened on this forum Ihave been told.

Brian your tc is to rich for my blood,And
Bill after my last post on 01-08-01 you thought your post offended me,it didn't!
But after I had talked to you on the phone and your son was going to send me price's on the right kit for my truck that you offer by e-mail instead you sent an e-mail telling me that if I wasn't mad you would send me the info I had requested. That did bother me and I told you so by not buying your tc and vb so you lost about $2000. 00 dollars in sales you need to trust the people you talk to. They can do their own research to buy the right product. One of the only voice's of reason has been PIERS THANK YOU !!! #ad
Thank you again.

 

[K_Arts]

20Fan... just my opinion, but I don't see this whole post as Brian and Bill acting like little kids. To be honest with you, througout this post, I really have learned a lot more about TC's then I ever thought about knowing. So please just take this entire thread with a grain of salt and learn from these guys. These are the guys that are really keeping our trucks running, and I want to thank Brian, Bill and Piers for keeping this entire thread at a civilized mannor... this is what the TDR is all about!!!

Thanks Guys

Kev

 

[PHaller]

Hmm,I really don't know how to feel... I guess I feel embarassed. I consider all of these fine people my friends. Friend is not a word I use lightly. We all have worked to solve problems and share the info for the benifit of us all. They all, ALL, have gone beyond what I consider the gold standard for customer service. Bill has spent hours with me on the phone over the last 3 years asking, what probably are considered, stupid questions about valve body upgrades and installation facts. Piers, about everything from our kids to gun control and everything in between including our trucks for longer. These are nice people and I got to know them through May Madness and the TDR. We all have sat down to dinner as friends on more then one occasion. We all have a common interest and we are all working toward the same goal.
Why do I feel embarassed?... because I feel reluctant to support a side when the sides are friends.
I am an end user and am interested in the outcome of this debate... I also have more then a few dollars and hours beyond count into products they are arguing and I encourage an open, active, debate; but I'm not sure "debate" is the way I would characterize this discussion.
No one will actually win this fight and I ,for one, am sorry for it.
-Paul R. Haller-

 

[carrk]

Boy I sure am glad I drive a standard transmission truck! hehehe...

 

[Swamp Donkey]

Hey, I had a 215L BD torque converter and their valve body installed less than six months ago. It is an improvement from stock, but I would sell or trade the converter in for the BD6L or a DTT converter in a heartbeat. As long as I was to get fair value for it. Oh well... . guess I will have to wait until I cook this transmission.

How much better is the BD6L than my 215L??? What is a stator and what kind is in the 215L. Where would it fit in the famous graph?

As for the "discussions" I don't mind them. It is kind of interesting, as I gawk on. It is like good gossip to me.

------------------
John McEachern
Fort St John B. C. Canada
1998 12v, 4X4, QC, auto w/tc switch, air, tilt, cruise, 3. 55 gears, TST #6, Isspro boost/pyro/transmission gauges, BD VB&TC, CC industries headache rack and rails, JVC KD-SX949 Cd player, forest green, Brigestone Dueler M/T's 285/75/16, Eagle 16x8 rims, K&N airfilter.

 

[Ray J]

Originally posted by Mopar-muscle:
Ray J , i have a DTT VB and TC and i am in Mass , i also have a friend with a competitors shiftkit and TC , i will be getting together with him in the near future closer to RI on a saturday in feburary . we can meet and you can drive both trucks , we are at pretty much the same HP level , i have a 2500 , he has a 3500 both same gearing .

Thanks Mopar... just let me know where/when in Feb. and I'll be there. I'll send separate email.

------------------
01 2500 Sport, QC, LWB, Auto, 4. 10, 4x4, Camper Pkg, Geno's muffler eliminator pipe, rest is stock for now

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Paul,

You also know that you have my complete respect, i have had emails tonight from people disappointed in my behaviour. For me everytime Brian and I get into it, it gets personal and emotional.

I also have a great deal of respect for Piers as an engine tuner.

You tell me ,how do i put into words the difference between a steel stator converter and a milled stator converter when all the graphs, dyno numbers, ect show their is very little difference.

You and i go way back with the original transgo shift kits that were sold to the Diesel ram owners,the ones that lowered the line pressure instead of increasing transmission line pressure. When i got kicked off the TST site for making this arguement i remember Rich Bailey and yourself continued the fight and helped change an entire industry's way of thinking.

Only when the everyday Dodge Ram consumer speaks up as you did will the industry change.

Brian and i can beat each other up all day as we are both vendors, i think its time for you to speak up Paul.

You have had the opportunity to drive both a milled stator and a steel stator converter and hook up your trailer to my truck.

In your opinion, from driving my truck with the steel stator did you notice a difference compared to the milled stator tc currently stator in your truck.

Paul we advertise we have 91% efficiency in the tc you drove,everyone else in this industry is now advertising a higher efficiency rating than we do with the milled stator.

How do i fight that Paul? You have driven both trucks.

All of our ad's comming out tell the story of the 91% steel stator convertor.

Unless someone has driven the two , how can they ever know?

Eventhough we know that we transfer the most power to the ground in fluid coupling , if you were reading the marketing numbers and reading the dyno charts ,

Which tc would you buy?

Paul you know this is not about money for me, if it was about money i would have taken the offer from Banks.

Its about personal pride for me and personal pride for Steve Marshall.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[Bill Kondolay]

I want to thank you guys that took the time to email me. I very much appreciate and respect your opinions.

I'm done.

Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[Bob Wagner]

Bill K. will be the man to rebuild my transmission when needed I respect Bill's desire to be #1



------------------
01 Dodge Ram 4X4 QC

 

[446]

Bill
"Paul you know this is not about money for me, if it was about money i would have taken the offer from Banks. "[b/]

BROTH
"You keep on referring to what happens to the guys that bought today’s technology 6 months from now. Can I ask you what happens to your customers that bought your convertor that has a good fluid coupling but still has the stock lock up clutch design? I’m sure you have a superior lock up clutch design in mind. You have been looking for a Billet cover; it was in a post a few months back. What are you going to offer your old customers?" [b/]

So should I buy now or is there going to be more drastic changes comming in a few months that would make it worth waiting for.
Since this is about more than money I know I can get a strait answer.
thanks
Tay


------------------
'97 2500 LT 4X4, WHITE,3. 54, AUTO, A/C, 35/12. 5-16. 5 BFG A/T, NO LIFT, K&N, 50K MILES, BOUGHT NEW

'69 SIX PAK B 4SP DANA - SCORCH RED

 

[PHaller]

Bill, my earlier post plainly said that I don't want to take sides. I try not to place blame and feel that dispite my wishes I'm asked to offer my opinion regarding convertors.

To give credit where credit is due, most of what I've learned about TCs I've learned from you and my own investigations. We go way back to the days of RTML, years before this forum. Most of what I know about the Cummins engine I learned from Piers, and Joe Donnelly and again from my personal involvment with the TDR. I can also remember a time, not that long ago, that we all could sit togeather comfortably and discuss in detail every aspect of diesel technology and how to make it better.

I think we all agree that a milled stator is old technology and that, now, better stators are available. Do I complain that I don't have the newest whiz bang products? Sometimes I do, but by todays standards, I'm driving a dinosaur. A 97 12 valver. 4 years ago it was the pinical of diesel technology. I also am typing this message on Mac that I paid 4000$ for 3 years ago... it's now worth nothing. My milled stator is what was good last year... now, its technology is passed and been replaced by better products. BD agrees as witnessed by their own new TC. I would be very surprised if it had not been upgraded. That's the way of technology.

Yes, I drove your truck and pulled my trailer with it. Yes, it's better but, with all due respect, it was not a fair test. I'm driving a 12 valver with a fuel plate and a 16 cm housing. No new injctors and an EGR equipped 180 horse California engine. That combination of lower horse power and a larger housing is not known for its low end grunt. Your truck has a smaller housing and perhaps a boost module on it not to mention a newer truck with fewer hard won miles pulling a behemoth all over the west and a 24 valve motor all of which improve the out of the hole performance and, of course, your torque convertor. I would expect it to be much better and I know that you do too.

I have not put all the convertors in my truck and dynoed them and then pulled my trailer with them to get a seat of the pants judgement. I honestly don't know what's best. My guess is, however, that any milled stator will not perform as well as a hand built stator. Why not take Brian up on his offer to use a single truck and swap convertors and dyno it again? I think Piers and Brian are straight shooters and would admit the best performer even if it meant theirs was not as good. At least we all would see what works and what does not under the same conditions and on a level playing field. But then, I don't know the current political climate in Canada.

In the final analysis I, unfortunatly, am not qualified to make a judgement as to the best TC. If anyone could be, in my humble opinion, it would be yourself and a handfull of others. Given that the efficency numbers between convertors don't make sense and there is no definitve tests to prove the specs, Isn't YOU knowing that your convertor is best, enough?

Put on the spot,
-Paul R. Haller-

 

[R.ebel]

Many thanks to all that has been posting info on these automatic transmissions. I find it both technically interesting and entertaining, and thanks to the moderators for not locking or removing this thread #ad


------------------
1997 2500 Ext Cab 4X4,5 spd,3. 54's,Pac brake,Rancho 9000's,Centerforce clutch,K&N airfilter,Missing
Cat,Isspro gauges,and #11plate(280hp/680tq)AFC medium spring

[This message has been edited by R. ebel (edited 01-10-2001). ]

 

[KevinK]

With all of this I've been reading about the poor stock TC and VB, why doesn't DC address this more? It's pretty obvious that most people a disappointed with the stock setup. IMO, Dodge is really bringing up the rear in the HD pickup market with their auto offering (I am assuming that the Duramax/Allison combo will easily outshine the Cummins/auto combo). Every article I've read that puts the PSD/auto against the Cummins/auto favors the PSD.

------------------
2k 3500, QC, 4x4, SLT+, auto, 3. 55s, 4" exhaust w/muffler, 14sq. cm Holset turbine housing, ~8k miles, dissappointing mileage (best tank 14mpg), gauges on order.

 

[danandamy]

Kevin, sometimes we forget that the rest of the general public is NOT like us here at the TDR. Believe it or not, there are people out there who WANT their autos to shift like a slushbox because they think it should shift as smooth as their Lincoln Town Car. Those of us who push our trucks and like to pull a load know that such should not be the case. I think that's why you don't see the lower stall, firmer shifts and the higher line pressures from the factory.

Daniel

 

[Mopar-muscle]

Originally posted by 20 FAN:
We Mopar muscle,You are sadly mistaken if you or anyone thinks that I am buying into this BS! I never thought that a shift kit would be all I needed. I just asked for some input. Because I was told by a vendor that was all he felt would needed. And then two other vendors jumped in to fight with oneanother.

settle down 20 , your post and replies came across as the info given to you by TST was the thing you should do . maybe if you worded your original post a bit differently the responses may have been slightly different .

Bill and Brian have a bit of a riff between them as any company owner would have when one of their best guys leaves and becomes the competition , taking some potential business with him.

To me Bill raised the bar and after he let the cat out of the bag about the milled stator , the other guys are scrambling to catch up now that their secert is out.

We the customer have everything to gain from this .

good luck with your choice and i hope you are happy with it and get the support you need if you have a problem , i know that customer service is high on DTT's priority list .

EDIT ...

446 , if you keep the "IS THERE SOMETHING BETTER ON THE HORIZION " thing in your mind you will never buy , because something better will always come along , i bought in october and there is something better on the horizion , and after that there is something else on the table that may be the next best thing is 6 months or a year . at some point you have to decide what is best at the time you need it , its better to fix it now than to wait till your stuck on the side of the road in the middle of no where .
try and find a couple of guys in your area with the different products and comparable HP mods , drive them all and make your decision , once you done it you can decide later if you need something better , if that is possible , right now short of swapping in an allision , i don't see much being better , other than perfecting the lockup clutch, but i hardly tow so to me its not a big priority.

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 01-11-2001). ]

[This message has been edited by Mopar-muscle (edited 01-11-2001). ]

 

[Boldt's Wagon]

Ladies and gentlemen: Just read this topic and find it interesting. As a retired engineer, the only correct efficiency measurement is HP out divided by HP in. The HP in and out is a product of both RPM and torque. The lost efficiency is converted to heat in the torque converter.

There is an "industry standard" for measuring efficiency. The method is described on the SouthWest Research Institute website at:
http://www.swri.edu/3PUBS/BROCHURE/D03/trantch/trantch.HTM

Automotive vendors can contract to have their torque converters tested at SWRI. I don't know if their current equipment can test the higher outputs we are discussing.

Using RPM only to indicate efficiency will give wrong results. In any event, a crude test can be made using a dynometer with forced lockup to determine maximum wheel HP at full throttle and various RPMs and repeating the test with a switch that prevents TC lockup and various vendors torque converters.

------------------
'97 SLT 2500, 4x2 LB Club Cab, auto, 230/605 fuel plate and 215 injectors, pillar mount Isspro gauges, BD torque converter, BD valve body, BD Pressureloc, Mag-Hytec transmission pan and differential cover, 3. 54 LSD, white/driftwood, air dam, sliding rear window, towing/camper pkgs, Rhino liner, SS bed caps, stake pocket tie downs, chrome exhaust turn down, SS wheel well trim, Carr steps, Mopar mudflaps, Aerotank under seat toolbox, Cobra 75WXST CB/Firestik, J-MAC louvered aluminum headache rack and tail gate, Mopar flag/tow mirrors, Reese 15k fifth wheel hitch. Mopar Ram hood ornament, Sweet Tooth grill, and white dice. Kennewick, WA.

 

[Bill Kondolay]

Boldt's Wagon,

You just got promoted to the head of the class. Well done.

OEM manufacturers measure their tc's this way. It's called a k factor formula.

This is why we custom engineered our steel stator.

Again, well done. #ad
#ad


Bill Kondolay
Diesel Transmission Technology

 

[446]

Mopar-Muscle
All this auto-trans stuff is greek to me.
Throw in a lockup and I'm really lost.
I dont tow anything. My truck is a daily driver and my toy. I do mostly city driveing
with a 2000 mile trip here and there. I get paid well but things in Denver are real expensive so I really cant afford to throw away $2000. I would like to be at the 400-450 hp level and only want to do this trans once. If there is something already in the works it would be nice not to be holding the bag with the old technology. I think we are all going to benefit from this ******* contest. I've known a few canadians and from what Ive seen, they have competition in their blood. Neither one of these guys is going to back down. I just hope I get in at the right time.
I'll take an E-mail, I can keep a secret #ad


------------------
'97 2500 LT 4X4, WHITE,3. 54, AUTO, A/C, 35/12. 5-16. 5 BFG A/T, NO LIFT, K&N, 50K MILES, BOUGHT NEW

'69 SIX PAK B 4SP DANA - SCORCH RED