Towing and EGT's

[DPinkston]

I'm new to all this and still trying to figure it out. From what I have gathered so far it seems to me that even though you can make big HP and TQ numbers, you may not be able to use it if towing heavy loads due to excessive EGT's. Is this correct? For heavy towing, is it better to have a mild to medium build than an all out BOMBer? Are the people with the wildest builds basically using their trucks as sports cars, towing little but going fast?

I am also at a loss to understandnthe HP ratings on various items. Injectors are rated at 180, 185, 190, etc. , except evryone seems to be making much more. Is this strictly due to pump mods and turbo changes? Are the factory HP and TQ numbers flywheel or rear wheel numbers? I looked at the Banks Systems last night and it seems their bolt on systems are not making the numbers that a lot of you guys are.

Sorry guys. I gots lots of questions. Lots of catching up to do.

DPinkston

 

[MMiller]

You are partially correct on bombing and towing. If you intend to tow heavy with your truck, you must be much more careful when picking your parts. If you put a small housing on the turbo you get much better throttle response, but you sacrafice your towing down the road because of the EGT's. Lately however a person can put on twin turbo kits(which there are several levels) and make some pretty incredible hp/tq, and still keep the EGT's down because the twins put a bunch of air in the engine.



The hp/tq ratings you see from dodge/cummins are flywheel readings. The numbers that you see here on the TDR are at the rear tires. The ratings of the injectors I believe are the injectors that cummins uses for their stock engines. Whether it be their 180 hp engine, 190 etc. The extra hp we get from these injectors is from pump tweaks, turbo changes, exhaust, etc. I happen to have the Bosch 185's in my truck. They gave it a very healthy kick in the pants but I tow heavy, so the POD's were pretty much out of the question for me.



Banks has very nice parts. They bolt on nice. But you are paying for the name, there engineering that makes the parts fit right. You are also correct in noticing the $$ to hp increase is not as good with the banks stuff compared to talking to Piers, Haisley, etc. They have nice stuff but the $$ spent is much higher for the returns.

 

[ARedetzke]

I wouldn't rule out PODs for towing. I have them, and a 14 cm housing too. I wouldn't say I tow the heaviest load in the world, most of the time just a couple of Jeeps, sometimes a 24 ft gooseneck full of firewood. You just have to know your limits on the fuel side of the equation. Sometimes I do have to drive by the pyro, especially in the mountains, but that really doesn't bother me much. I guess if I was towing all the time it might be a different story. Just my 2 cents worth.

AJ

 

[DPinkston]

What I am trying to figure out is if EGT's are the limiting factor in towing, and EGTs can exceed safe levels easily with either the VE or P pump, what are the advantages to going with the P pump? The reason I ask is I am in the market for a Cummins to drop in my Ford F350 and I am trying to decide which to get. I can get a 1st gen about $1500 cheaper than a 2nd gen. I know the 2nd gens in stock form can range from 160hp up to 215hp. From looking at the sigs of the guys here and what has been reported in terms of dyno figures, I am leaning toward getting the 1st gen. The truck will be used primarily for daily driving (I'd love to see close to 20mpg) and I occassionally may tow 7,000lbs (once a month), or even more rarely tow up to 14,000 (once a year). That $1500 will go a long way toward buying the trans adapter, exhaust, and other goodies I will need for the conversion. Help me decide where to put my money.

Danny

 

[dpuckett]

Any more, with the right injectors, pump tweaks, and other goodies, you can get a VE pumped engine to break most stock (and some hopped up) drivelines, FOrd, Dodge, GM, et al. The VE doesnt have the reputation for durability that the P7100 does, but if you are only going to do occasional light towing (I consider anythign under 10K light), then the VE should last as long as the truck. Plus, they are easier to get big power gains from than is the P7100. And for $1500, you can get a lot of goodies. Just make sure the VE'd engine is from an intercooled truck- better head and injector bore design, and the head gasket is stronger. Turbos are a direct bolt on between the 2 generations of 12v engines, so you wont have to worry about that.



One thing you will have to consider is emissions compliance if that is an issue where you live. THey went to the P7100 pump to get the pressure high enough for a fine enough fuel spray to meet the 1994 smog standards. Then the electronic controls in 98; HPCR in 03. Get the picture?



Have fun. I have been thinking of getting a Ford with a blown 7. 3 or 6. 9 and putting my engine and transmission in a better truck, but then for the money required to do that, I can put quite a bit into this bucket of bolts.



One more thing- since you are going to have to put a different exhasut on, get a 4" and be done with it, regardless of the year engine. They say you dont gain any power, but I, along with a few others here, have seen goodly gains in off-the-line get-up-and-go, plus the EGT reduction (slower to rise, faster to drop) with the 4" pipe.



Daniel

 

[DPinkston]

One thing you will have to consider is emissions compliance if that is an issue where you live. THey went to the P7100 pump to get the pressure high enough for a fine enough fuel spray to meet the 1994 smog standards. Then the electronic controls in 98; HPCR in 03. Get the picture?

Daniel

No worries with emissions here in Kentucky.

Danny

 

[MMiller]

I know with my truck, I gross anywhere from 20-28,000 lbs pulling. I think that is pretty heavy. That with the combonation of the 3. 55 gears and the 33" tall tires and my particular setup I can hit 1400* on the pryo pretty easily. I don't even tow in the mountians, I think I would be pretty disgusted with this setup in the mountains. I guess this is why I think the PODs would not be a good setup in my truck. I should be more careful when I say tow. 7000# behind my truck is a cake walk, never even think of looking at the pyro.



I am one of the group that is happy with VE power. Sure you can get more fuel out of a Ppump, but how much do you need? Got several guys running around 400+ hp. When you are talking about those levels of hp, the injection pump life IMHO is the least of my worries. I have had my fair share of drive line problems. Like Daniel said, the VE will make enough power to tear up any pick up truck drive line.



Michael

 

[bmoeller]

I have had my fair share of drive line problems. Like Daniel said, the VE will make enough power to tear up any pick up truck drive line.



Michael

Doing burn-outs with a loaded gooseneck isn't helping any. :-laf

 

[BushWakr - RIP]

There are parts combinations and settings that are obviously different depending on your usage... such as the towing issue above.

You can install performance parts and set the system up so that you have as much of that "performance upgrade" usable...

The basics are air in/out, pump settings (can make a big difference in most all of the available injectors) drivetrain components, cooling etc.

You can tailor the system to meet 75 - 80% or your needs for every day driving and still have the flexibility to tweak the system to meet your particular needs when you are "outside the box" so to speak.



pastor bob...

 

[Greenleaf]

I towed a UHAUL triler up from FL this summer. It has a load rating of 5K and was very heavily loaded along with the truck bed filled with shop tools. My POD equipped engine would very easily peg both boost and EGT gauges.



Tow tow like this regularly, I would need to add a set of twins or a flow and ported head.



GL

 

[MMiller]

Shhh Bryan. I think these guys believe I baby my truck. :-laf Besides you can't really classify it as a burnout, the smoke was comming from the exhaust, not the tires! The trailer wasn't completely "loaded". There was only one truck on the trailer and 1000# of suitcase weights on it. Just wait until you see me with 2 trucks on the trailer!!



Now how the heck do you quote someone?



Michael

 

[ARedetzke]

Now how the heck do you quote someone?



Michael

Hit the quote button over here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>V

 

[JLEONARD]

I read this earlier, but decided to wait until I collected some thoughts before I replied. So here goes... . flak helmet and vest are on ... based on my limited experience and knowledge... .

Granted the 2ng gen engine has more power potential... . the P pump is an incredible unit that can really deliver some fuel.

But to "power up" for towing, you need to make modest upgrades... . whether using the VE or the P pump... . in order to stay out of trouble EGT wise.

To get into this range, either the VE or P pump can oblige with the help of the appropriate accesories and properly matched injectors, pump settings, turbo upgrades, and exhaust upgrades.

The key is to pay attention and drive a little differently if and when you tow.



My son bought a 94 to occasionally tow auction bought cars/trucks with. It sucked in stock form.

A few upgrades and it had plenty of power, but still ran EGTs thru the roof. A turbo compressor wheel upgrade and BHAF, along with a torque converter and VB upgrade, and he can basically pretend the trailer isn't there any more, without going EGT crazy. (truck is in the 260 rwhp range based on dyno results on a friend's truck that is similarly bombed).



Getting either a VE or P pump to this hp level is not rocket science today thanks to TDR.



Just another point of view.

Jay

 

[MMiller]

Hit the quote button over here >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>V

Ahh like this?! Maybe I will open my eyes tonight.



Jay- very good answer to the question. No need for a flak jacket in here. We're all friends right?



Michael

 

[DPinkston]

You have reaffirmed the conclusions I drew from mining information from this great forum. While the P Pump is superior in potential, the VE is more than sufficient for real world, day to day work and play. I am still shopping for an engine so a 2nd gen isn't out of the question, but now I won't have any qualms about picking up a 1st gen if a good deal presents itself.

Thanks to all who replied.

Danny

 

[JLEONARD]

While the P Pump is superior in potential, the VE is more than sufficient for real world, day to day work and play

Danny,

You did an excellent job of summarizing in one sentance what took us 14 repies to say. :-laf :-laf



Jay



EDIT... . Pastor Bob... I think you need to issue Danny a credit good for 5 bonus HPs... . to be used in the engine generation of his choice.

 

[ARedetzke]

While the P Pump is superior in potential, the VE is more than sufficient for real world, day to day work and play.

Very true Danny, however, if you are like most of us around here, you will always want more power..... If you think there is a chance you will fall into this category, think about all that extra potential of the P pump. I'm a huge fan of building things right the first time. Unfortunately I didn't have the patience to do that with my Jeep, and now I look back and think what could have been if I didn't have so much money wrapped up into it... .

AJ

 

[bmoeller]

:-laf Besides you can't really classify it as a burnout, the smoke was comming from the exhaust, not the tires! The trailer wasn't completely "loaded".

True, but it was fun to watch just the same. :-laf