Towing Comparison: Dodge vs. Ford

[HBarlow]

A couple weeks ago I wrote a post reporting my experience during a day of towing with a fellow RV transporter driving a Chevy/Izuzu Duramax and pulling a similar travel trailer. Now I have a similar experience with a Ford to report.



Last week I delivered a monster (43') fifth wheel from LA to Missoula, MT then was dispatched to Twin Falls, ID to pick up a small 20' trailer to deliver to a dealer in Sandy, UT. Just as I arrived at the plant in ID late in the day another driver for the same company I pull for showed up driving an '06 Ford PSD dually with "Ford-o-matic" (forgive me, it's the name Ford gave it's automatics in the 1950s) transmission. We learned that we were picking up identical small trailers to deliver to the same dealer and decided to run together. The following morning we made our deliveries in UT, called our dispatcher, and were given identical assignments once again to return to Twin Falls and pick up 27' trailers to deliver to Manteca, CA. Again we ran together. We pulled lots of steep grades running south to Wells, NV and then west on I-80 to Sacramento then south to Manteca.



The other transporter was a skilled and fast driver, a former 18 wheel truck jockey, and I was comfortable allowing him to lead. We ran all the way to UT and back and then to Manteca, CA together at 75 mph with cruise controls set.



Here is what I learned about his Ford: On every single grade we pulled his speed would drop off and I would close the distance between us as we climbed the grade. If he tried to maintain speed I would see a puff of black smoke as his Ford downshifted all the way to second gear and revved to 3200 to 3400 rpm all the way to the top of the hill. On all but Donner Pass my Dodge easily maintained speed in overdrive with the cruise control engaged, the tach never dropping below 1600 rpm, and always closed the distance between us. The other driver was a devoted Ford guy, he probably has a blue oval tattooed on his chest and a blue oval tailgate emblem on his toilet at home, but he was aware of the problem Ford 6. 0 owners are having with leaking heads so most of the time he turned off the cruise as we climbed the grades and allowed his speed to drop rather than keeping his foot in it to maintain power. I found it annoying because I would have to turn off my cruise control and allow my speed to drop accordingly or I would literally run over him. It was an insult to my mighty Cummins which could easily pull the grades in overdrive at 1600-1800 rpm without backing out of the throttle to punch off the cruise control and allow it to slow down to avoid running over a Ford. A couple of times as I came roaring up behind the Ford guy almost running over his trailer I called him on the CB and asked him if his Ford needed a little push to get over the hill. It was quickly apparent that he didn't appreciate my Cummins-owner's humor so I quietly disengaged my cruise control and politely followed him slowly over the hills.



My informal conclusion based on one comparison test: The Ford/Navistar is simply not a competitor to our Dodge/Cummins trucks in commercial applications. The Ford 6. 0 will accelerate briskly, loaded or unloaded, on an interstate highway acceleration ramp. But the Ford/Navistar 6. 0 produces VERY LITTLE low rpm torque. It is simply not a truck motor. Pulling an identical load on the same highway in identical weather under identical load and speed conditions the Ford has to downshift to second gear and rev to 3200-3400 rpm to keep up with a Dodge/Cummins running in overdrive at 1600-1800 rpm. In short, the Navistar is not a commercial truck engine.



My fellow transporter buddy is a nice guy and fun to run with so I didn't tell him what I know from talking to numerous transporters who drive or did formerly drive Fords . . . he was bankrupt the day he signed a six year finance agreement with Ford Motor Credit to buy his beautiful new Ford/PSD dually to pull trailers for hire. There is no question whatsoever about whether his 6. 0 engine will hold up in commercial duty, it won't. The only question that remains to be answered is whether the first engine failure will occur during or after the warranty period expires. I have talked to a dozen transporter Ford owners and former Ford owners who have experienced catastrophic engine failures. The lucky ones had the experience between 70k and 100k miles and only lost income for a few weeks while a Ford dealer gave them a run around then replaced the entire engine. The unlucky ones had the experience after 100k miles and got a bill for $15k for a new engine.



Harvey

 

[Nine Ball]

I have a funny Ford 6. 0L story to share also. Two of my racing buddies own 6. 0 trucks, and they were trying to make it to a race about 400 miles away. Of course, wrenching last minute on the racecar, trying to leave late at night, last minute.



Towing an enclosed 30' trailer, with a Camaro inside. They blew a headgasket about 20 miles outside of Houston, not even 30 minutes into the trip. Called a towtruck, and went home to pick up the other 6. 0L truck to finish the trip. That one blew a headgasket about 100 miles down the road. Of course, they didn't make it to the race.



Talk about brutal!

 

[Simplysmn]

I've got a funny one for you all also have a buddy that had a 2003 powerjoke added chip/programer duel ext all the fancy stuff told him his truck was still a slug so he said I'll race you in your Vw bug mind you its a 67 with a 2110 pushin easy 130 to wheels well we line up on the street in front of his shop his wife comes out gives us to go sign as i'm laughin so hard I hit 3rd gear and as I back out of it he caught me but at that point it was over that motor in his POS lasted less then 6 months n he blew turbo n motor ,So back to dealer he goes n gest a new truck when Ford saw what happened they sent him a nice bill for 10,000 for repairs needless to say his second turd was just back in shop for engine work again . When will theses furd guys ever learn six in a row is the Only way to Go Unless you drive a Vw

 

[driverno8]

My sister-in-law got her F250 Crew Cab Long Bed 4X4 stolen right out of her drive way. They stipped the interior out of it. Long story. Anyway she had a camping trip planned with her kids and her 28' TT. Yes, she's independant. She borrowed her dads (my father-in-law) '05 Cummins QC LB. Head to head comparison, same gearing both 3/4 tons, both bone stock, both 4X4 w/autos. I asked her to give me her honest thoughts about the way the two of them towed. I was thinking motor... . but when she got back she praised it. Not only the towing abilitly, but the turning radius, how much quieter it was and the better fuel mileage. About a week later she asked me to go with her to look at MegaCabs. As of now she's waiting for her insurance check so she can go order her new Dodge.



My best friend is a die hard Ford guy. Owned them all his life. Wife drive an Excursion 7. 3. He also owns a 04. 5 Dodge 3500 dually. Another long story, but wasn't his first choice. Since owning it he's bombed it pretty good. You should hear him brag about how much better his CTD is then the PS. It's funny to watch him contridict himself over everything he's ever said about Fords. He'll call me to tell me he killed a PS towing a grade or from light to light. Makes me laugh.

 

[Bertram65]

Interesting results, I have driven a few 3rd gen trucks and none of them had any power below 2000rpm when towing, I am also surprised your truck did not downshift to 3rd at 1600rpm in OD, at that rpm you at definetly lugging the motor, you must have been going about a little over 50mph, that is way too slow for the OD when towing, not only hard on the engine but also really hard on the trans.

 

[HBarlow]

Bertram:



I am not saying that you are wrong but my own experience does not agree with your interpretation. Your comments about lugging the Cummins engine at 1600 rpm are the generally accepted standard often expressed in the TDR forums but are actually contrary to the advice offered by Cummins, the engine manufacturer.



When I bought my previous '01 I was new to diesel engine ownership and had lots of questions. I purchased a small handbook published by Cummins, Inc. with operating instructions for the ISB. Among many suggestions was a line that went something like this: "it is acceptable to operate the Cummins ISB engine at full power down to but not below 1600 rpm. " Because that line was in direct contradiction to the operating advice I was reading on the TDR website I quoted the line in an e-mail to Cummins asking if it was what they intended to say and if it was correct. I received a prompt reply telling me that it was accurate and was within acceptable operating practices and would not harm the engine. The engineer who wrote the reply reminded me that the Cummins ISB engine produces maximum torque at 1600 rpm and torque output is essentially flat up to 2700 rpm. Why would it be unacceptable to operate the engine at the speed at which it produces maximum torque? I posted that information in the 24 valve forum back in 2001 but it was ignored, I'm sure. I ran my '01 HO/6 speed that way for 322,000 miles without any apparent harm. I did have to have the NV-5600 transmission rebuilt at around 305k miles but that was only because I allowed the fluid level to get a little low due a leak around the top gasket. I was not aware that allowing fluid level to get a little low would starve the big roller bearing. Actually, I paid to have the transmission completely rebuilt because my daughter and son-in-law were waiting to buy the truck otherwise the noisy bearing could have been replaced and the transmission put back together. The rest of the transmission worked fine.



The 48RE in my '06 routinely allows the engine to "lug" more than I allowed when I was making the decision about shift points with the '01 6 speed. I am not an engineer or even a mechanic but personally, I question the commonly accepted operating parameters often expressed on the TDR website. I may be wrong but I have seen no damage done by operating the mighty Cummins down to 1600 rpm with egt up around 1300 degrees, fully loaded, foot pressed to the floor. 322,000 mostly loaded and essentially trouble-free miles isn't bad. I don't know, maybe that truck would not have reached 1,000,000 miles without rebuild but I'm satisfied that it was still running great and consuming no oil at 322k.



Harvey

 

[betterthanstock]

at 1600rpm in OD, at that rpm you at definetly lugging the motor, you must have been going about a little over 50mph, that is way too slow for the OD when towing, not only hard on the engine but also really hard on the trans.

I don't know about the OD as I drive a six speed, but I know he was doing no damage to the engine at 1600 rpm. I would call it lugging around 1400, and you get a lot more vibrations at that rpm.

Some people idle in first gear with a stickshift and trailer in tow up steep hills. That is lugging, not 1600.



The MB (mercedes) truck engines advertise that you don't need to downshift until 1000 rpm. Those are bigger engines. For ours, 1500 seems to be the low rpm pulling point.

 

[wcjp]

This past weekend a friend and I were pulling our Jeeps over the mountains. Both trucks are CTD equipped. We were passing just about everything on the road. I realized something was coming up behind us. I called ahead to my friend we were holding up traffic. Realized it was another 3rd Gen CTD pulling a large horse hauler. Figures, I'd get passed by another Cummins

 

[Bertram65]

Bertram:



I am not saying that you are wrong but my own experience does not agree with your interpretation. Your comments about lugging the Cummins engine at 1600 rpm are the generally accepted standard often expressed in the TDR forums but are actually contrary to the advice offered by Cummins, the engine manufacturer.



When I bought my previous '01 I was new to diesel engine ownership and had lots of questions. I purchased a small handbook published by Cummins, Inc. with operating instructions for the ISB. Among many suggestions was a line that went something like this: "it is acceptable to operate the Cummins ISB engine at full power down to but not below 1600 rpm. " Because that line was in direct contradiction to the operating advice I was reading on the TDR website I quoted the line in an e-mail to Cummins asking if it was what they intended to say and if it was correct. I received a prompt reply telling me that it was accurate and was within acceptable operating practices and would not harm the engine. The engineer who wrote the reply reminded me that the Cummins ISB engine produces maximum torque at 1600 rpm and torque output is essentially flat up to 2700 rpm. Why would it be unacceptable to operate the engine at the speed at which it produces maximum torque? I posted that information in the 24 valve forum back in 2001 but it was ignored, I'm sure. I ran my '01 HO/6 speed that way for 322,000 miles without any apparent harm. I did have to have the NV-5600 transmission rebuilt at around 305k miles but that was only because I allowed the fluid level to get a little low due a leak around the top gasket. I was not aware that allowing fluid level to get a little low would starve the big roller bearing. Actually, I paid to have the transmission completely rebuilt because my daughter and son-in-law were waiting to buy the truck otherwise the noisy bearing could have been replaced and the transmission put back together. The rest of the transmission worked fine.



The 48RE in my '06 routinely allows the engine to "lug" more than I allowed when I was making the decision about shift points with the '01 6 speed. I am not an engineer or even a mechanic but personally, I question the commonly accepted operating parameters often expressed on the TDR website. I may be wrong but I have seen no damage done by operating the mighty Cummins down to 1600 rpm with egt up around 1300 degrees, fully loaded, foot pressed to the floor. 322,000 mostly loaded and essentially trouble-free miles isn't bad. I don't know, maybe that truck would not have reached 1,000,000 miles without rebuild but I'm satisfied that it was still running great and consuming no oil at 322k.



Harvey

I am not sure how damaging lugging is to the motor, based on your '01 it does not seem like it is harmful. I would think it would create more carbon buildup, it does create a lot of heat and boost. I see the EGTs go down as does the boost when the RPMs climb above 2000rpm, the motor actually runs a little hotter at higher RPM, above 2000 based on water and engine oil temp observations, though the exhaust is cooler, so it could be trade off.

The automatic definetly operates better at higher engine RPMs as it has better circulation of fluid for cooling and higher line pressures.

I have seen that referenced many times that the torque curve is flat from 1600RPMs on but without HP, which is not made until higher RPMs at least in my experience it cannot hold RPM or increase when a big hill comes up when towing below 2000RPM.

 

[HBarlow]

Bertram:



You are probably right about possible damage to the automatic transmission resulting from low rpm loaded operation. I know that Bill Kondolay, the guru of Dodge automatic transmissions, preaches (convincingly) that the 47RE and, I guess, the 48RE also should not be operated under heavy load at low engine rpm because he says the transmission needs greater rpm to produce sufficient internal line pressure to keep the torque convertor locked properly and maybe for other reasons I'm not aware of and don't understand. I heard him express that strong recommendation at a TDR rally at Kerrville, TX in October of 2001. It may not be wise to allow the 48RE in my new truck to operate under heavy load at or near 1600 rpm . . . I guess I will know in time if that is a mistake. I usually back out of the throttle a little to avoid a forced downshift if I'm going to allow it to pull in overdrive. It didn't hurt the NV-5600 in my previous truck as far as I could determine.



As to carbon build up the head was removed on my '01 somewhere in the 250k mile range to replace a slowly weeping head gasket. The combustion chambers in the cylinder head were completely clean and free of any carbon build up as were the piston tops so I don't think my operating habits caused any carbon problems. I had not previously mentioned this but my '01 is a factory HO with 6 speed with "275 hp" motor home injectors installed by Joe Donnelly when it had 16,000 miles on the odometer. The modified injectors increased fueling and made the engine operate with higher egts than intended by Cummins. To the credit of incredible Cummins engineering I saw no damage or unintended consequences to that engine with heavy pulling but careful maintenance under modified conditions for 306k miles out of it's 322k mile life while I owned it. It still runs strong and reliably although now it is semi-retired and rests in front of my daughter and her husband's home except for special "ceremonial" occasions like pulling their restored vintage Airstream or an occasional work assignment like pulling a work site office trailer to one of my son in law's construction sites. It has a well-deserved easy life now.



Harvey

 

[MFalkinham]

If Motor Trend could turn back time, I'll bet they'd rate these three trucks differently than they did back in 2004... .....

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/pickup/112_0409_2004_4x4_turodiesel_trucks/index.html

First Place - Ford SuperDuty 6. 0L
Second Place - Chevy Silverado Duramax
Third Place - Dodge Ram Cummins:--)

It just goes to show you shouldn't drive trucks or write magazine articles while high on crack..... #ad

 

[BWadman]

I just came back from Oregon. I have a 29 foot fifth wheel 12,000 lbs and my brother in law has a similar trailer with similar weight. He has a PSD auto and I of course a CTD 6 Speed. Climbing up Santiam pass near Sisters Oregon is an 11 mile 6% grade. Every time we got to a big hill I would leave him at the bottom and would have to wait for him on the other side for a bit to catch up. He was so far back it wasn't even funny. We both have a chip. I have a Edge juice w/attitude on level 3. and he has a Superchips 60 hp. When we got to the gas station to fillup after going about 145 miles. I took 12. 7 gallons of fuel and he took 20. 9 gallons of fuel. To me there is no contest when towing. It was great to leave him in a cloud of smoke at the bottom.

 

[Foil Freak 1211]

If he tried to maintain speed I would see a puff of black smoke as his Ford downshifted all the way to second gear and revved to 3200 to 3400 rpm all the way to the top of the hill. Harvey

No doubt that the Cummins/Dodge is a superior product, but how do you know what gear and RPM he was running?

 

[HBarlow]

Because I called him on the CB radio and asked him what his tach was reading and what his automatic transmission was doing.



Simple deduction explained what was occuring. Both trucks are similarly geared. My Dodge and his Ford have automatic transmissions. The typical Ford like his has a 3. 73 differential and my Dodge has a 4. 10. My tires are slightly taller which would make my 4. 10 ratio a little closer to his 3. 73 with shorter tires. We were running at the same highway speed. I knew that if I had punched the button in the end of my shifter lever and caused a shift to 3rd gear (OD lockout=direct) my engine rpm would have jumped to approximately 2400-2600 rpm. In order to spin the engine at 3200-3400 as he reported his Ford was doing would have required a gear lower than 3rd or direct drive hence his Ford obviously had to have dropped to 2nd.



Harvey

 

[Grizzly]

When I ordered my 05 Dodge/Cummins DRW, I sold my 95 Dodge/Cummins DRW to a young man from Colorado. He has a large gooseneck trailer and hauls alfalfa for a living. Prior to purchasing my Dodge he was hauling the alfalfa with a Ford Powerjoke and was on his third engine. I spoke to him a few time after he was pulling the gooseneck with the 95 Dodge. He was so impressed with the power the Cummins had. He said that it would fly over the Rocky Mt. hills. He also said that the most impressive part was the great milage he was getting. He couldn't be happier.

 

[Jeepr]

How are you running only 1600 RPM at 75mph with 48RE and 4. 10's? Do you have stock size tires? 70mph for me is about 1800 RPm with 48RE and 3. 73's. I find it does downshift up decent hills pulling my Jeep on 18ft trailer.

 

[HBarlow]

How are you running only 1600 RPM at 75mph with 48RE and 4. 10's?

Maybe I didn't express myself clearly. I think I said that the Ford guy's speed would fall off and I closed the distance between us then I would see a puff of black smoke indicating his truck had downshifted. By that time our speed was much lower, maybe around 60.



Harvey

 

[GaryCarter]

Because I called him on the CB radio and asked him what his tach was reading and what his automatic transmission was doing.



Simple deduction explained what was occuring. Both trucks are similarly geared. My Dodge and his Ford have automatic transmissions. The typical Ford like his has a 3. 73 differential and my Dodge has a 4. 10. My tires are slightly taller which would make my 4. 10 ratio a little closer to his 3. 73 with shorter tires. We were running at the same highway speed. I knew that if I had punched the button in the end of my shifter lever and caused a shift to 3rd gear (OD lockout=direct) my engine rpm would have jumped to approximately 2400-2600 rpm. In order to spin the engine at 3200-3400 as he reported his Ford was doing would have required a gear lower than 3rd or direct drive hence his Ford obviously had to have dropped to 2nd.



Harvey

Harv- FYI the Ford Torqshift is a six speed automatic. Plus it selectively locks and unlocks the TC in all the upper gears to manage hp/torque. Had one myself prior truck. Has lots of effective gear ratios. Most likely gear change on a grade like that for the Ford would be from OD locked to direct unlocked.



And while I do like and prefer my Cummins, having towed with every diesel on the market in the last 6 years, the 6 liter Ford would out pull them all on the hill. Yes, at 3400 rpm, but it would pass everthing else up grade. Haven't yet had one of the newest Dmaxes to test.



Gary

 

[mlewis73]

Speaking of mileage... I got 17. 7 hand calculated mpg on my BRAND NEW Ram 3500 dually coming home from the dealer in Missouri on Tuesday. 800 miles, many of which were through the Smokies, with hammer down after driving the first 400 miles easy.



I think that mileage is great for brand new engine. Can't wait to see how things improve.



Overhead display is WAY off, though... said 20. 4 mpg.

 

[HBarlow]

Most likely gear change on a grade like that for the Ford would be from OD locked to direct unlocked. Gary

Gary,



If you've owned and driven one you are probably correct about what gear the Ford was actually operating in.



My point was that the Ford has to downshift to attain greater torque multiplication from the transmission and spin the engine at 3200-3400rpm to produce adequate torque to pull the same grade with identical load as the Dodge-Cummins operating at 1600-1800 rpm in overdrive.



Downshifting and spinning the engine that fast on every hill will burn a lot more fuel, hasten wear, and shorten service life.



I have read and was aware that the GM-Isuzu Allison has two overdrive ratios which makes it a six speed but I have not read or heard that the Ford transmission is a 6 speed. Are you sure about that?



I know from running with a new Chevy/Allison that it will only run in the top overdrive ratio at light throttle on flat ground. The moment the driver or cruise control calls for more power the transmission drops one or two gears.



Harvey