Re: Lugging at 1600 RPM... when the 3rd gen. 's came out with the common rail Cummins, didn't I read that Max torque is achieved at 1400 RPMs? Which was different than the 1st & 2nd gen. Dodge/Cummins. So if that figure is true, I would say that 1600 is not lugging. That being said I usually run mine at 1900 to 2100 while towing, as it just feels better to me at those RPMs & I'm usually in a hurry!
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Towing Comparison: Dodge vs. Ford
- Thread starter HBarlow
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towing in OD with trailer
Actually to his support I have towed around 12k with my 05 in OD over the Grape vine and it did it in OD for all but one section that I had slowed down for a semi, It really does not seem to call for 3rd very often I actually was pretty impressed that it did the Grape Vine at 60 stock where my 01 was bombed to keep those speeds... . So far pretty happy with my 05 it has been a pretty powerful truck for stock and this coming from a 01 with dd3's edge comp and dtt trans; just need to get a tighter converter for the 05 to make it better.
Actually to his support I have towed around 12k with my 05 in OD over the Grape vine and it did it in OD for all but one section that I had slowed down for a semi, It really does not seem to call for 3rd very often I actually was pretty impressed that it did the Grape Vine at 60 stock where my 01 was bombed to keep those speeds... . So far pretty happy with my 05 it has been a pretty powerful truck for stock and this coming from a 01 with dd3's edge comp and dtt trans; just need to get a tighter converter for the 05 to make it better.
[QUOTE HBarlow]
My fellow transporter buddy is a nice guy and fun to run with so I didn't tell him what I know from talking to numerous transporters who drive or did formerly drive Fords . . . he was bankrupt the day he signed a six year finance agreement with Ford Motor Credit to buy his beautiful new Ford/PSD dually to pull trailers for hire. There is no question whatsoever about whether his 6. 0 engine will hold up in commercial duty, it won't. The only question that remains to be answered is whether the first engine failure will occur during or after the warranty period expires. I have talked to a dozen transporter Ford owners and former Ford owners who have experienced catastrophic engine failures. The lucky ones had the experience between 70k and 100k miles and only lost income for a few weeks while a Ford dealer gave them a run around then replaced the entire engine. The unlucky ones had the experience after 100k miles and got a bill for $15k for a new engine.
Harvey[/QUOTE]
I had a 2005 F-450 with 6. 0 that had a major melt down at 36,000.
My fellow transporter buddy is a nice guy and fun to run with so I didn't tell him what I know from talking to numerous transporters who drive or did formerly drive Fords . . . he was bankrupt the day he signed a six year finance agreement with Ford Motor Credit to buy his beautiful new Ford/PSD dually to pull trailers for hire. There is no question whatsoever about whether his 6. 0 engine will hold up in commercial duty, it won't. The only question that remains to be answered is whether the first engine failure will occur during or after the warranty period expires. I have talked to a dozen transporter Ford owners and former Ford owners who have experienced catastrophic engine failures. The lucky ones had the experience between 70k and 100k miles and only lost income for a few weeks while a Ford dealer gave them a run around then replaced the entire engine. The unlucky ones had the experience after 100k miles and got a bill for $15k for a new engine.
Harvey[/QUOTE]
I had a 2005 F-450 with 6. 0 that had a major melt down at 36,000.
Though I only have 150 miles on my new 06, I can tell you out if the box it is a superior driveline. I used to have an 04 PSD 6L that some members from here have seen and drove, and as long as you had the RPM's up to 2800-3300 It pulled pretty good. In my oppinion thats shameful for a diesel to need to rev that high to make decent power. As far as the Tq shift transmission goes, Its a decent trans, very precise, and will hold big power, stock. Its just too bad its hooked up to a six leaker. And, this is coming frrom a pretty die hard Ford guy. (now converted)
It will be interesting to see how my new trans holds up.
It will be interesting to see how my new trans holds up.
GaryCarter said:
Elite1 said:
I believe you are correct.
HBarlow said:
Ok. I had an 05 F-450 with 4. 88 gears and 5spd auto. The truck is rated at a gcvw of 30,000lbs. I had my 53' take3 lowpro car hauler hooked to it. Loaded on the trailer was a 97 VW jetta, 05 dodge durango and a 97 chevy 3/4 ton extended cab 4x4. I was moving the cars from Billings MT to Great Falls MT. Just before I got to Harlow town my temp gauge spiked up into the red, so I backed out of the throttle. The temp quickley came down to normal operating temp. I get past harlow town and am about half way to Judith Gap. There are alot of small hills between the two towns. Anyways the temp spiked again and the next thing I know shes pouring white smoke out the tail pipe. Now on this stretch of highway there is no shoulder, so I could not pull over. I had about 10 miles to get to Judith Gap. So I said to hell with it and ran her all the way to judith Gap pouring white smoke. I got there let the truck idle for a few minutes and she died. Had to unload the Durango to get home to Great Falls. I pulled the box off my 03 Ram (can't tow the trailer with box because it's a lowpro) drove back to Judith Gap and had the local service station help me get that big POS 450 on my trailer. Hooked my Ram up to the trailer and towed it to FT Benton MT to have thier Ford dealer fix the truck(the dealer in Great Falls takes forever to get anything done) and delivered the cars with no problems.
The dealer call me two weeks later and tell me the trucks fixed. It had warped the intake manifold, and down pipe. Blown the EGR cooler and oil cooler. Blew both head gaskets and fried like 10 sensors fromm all the antifreeze it blew out the fill tank. So anyways I go to pick up the truck and drive it home(it's only a 45 mile drive) and just as I reach town the POS loses all oil pressure. So I take it to the dealer in Great Falls. About two weeks later they call me and say the truck is fixed. They had to rebuild the front half of the engine. I go to pick it up and they tell me one of thier service advisors is test driving it. So I wait 20 mins and no truck. I'm starting to get ****** when they tell me the truck died and the guy can't get it started again. So a week later they get the truck going again and I go pick it up. So I do a walk around before leaving and notice a huge dent on the passenger side of the front bumper. They fix the bumper and I took the truck straight to the Dodge dealer and traded it off on a new 3500. The Dodge dealer had to take the truck back to the ford dealer three times before they could resell it. I feel sorry for the poor guy that bought it. As far as Ford goes I was trying to get them to take the truck back while all these problems were happening. I had leased the truck Big Mistake on my part. They said sure we'll take it back but when we take it to auction and it only brings us $20,000 you still owe us the other $26,000 you have left on the lease. What kind of BS is that??? I will never step foot in another Furd dealer again. I should have known better. I already owned the most capable pickup out there. I just wish Dodge would come out with the 5500. If they would have had one I would have never been in this mess in the first place.
Black Sheep,
Thanks for sharing a painful story. I've heard many of them similar to yours. Lots of owners have been burned like you were but dumped their Fords and promised to never return as you just wrote. The most surprising stories I've heard were told by Ford owners who had an experience similar to yours and then traded their junk '03 or '04 for an '05 somehow hoping that experience would be different.
I understand how someone who needs to haul 30,000 pound gross combined weights would buy an F550 if they didn't know about the 6. 0 engine. Dodge doesn't offer a truck rated for that weight range. The Ford F550 appears to be a nice platform and they include lots of nice features like the OEM factory hydraulic/electronic brake controller using the same technology as BrakeSmart, the in-dash outfitter switches, and OEM boost and transmission temp gauges. I like their appearance also.
I've only talked to one 6. 0 Ford owner who actually worked his truck and survived 200k miles. It was an older guy like me parked next to me one Sunday night at the Flying J in Tacoma, WA early this year. He had an F450/550 and said he normally pulled a car trailer with it but supplemented his activity and income as an occasional RV transporter. He said his survived because he never tried to maintain speed on grades when loaded. He said he always allowed the truck to slow and creep up the hills using light throttle. His engine had not suffered a catastrophic failure but he told me he had still spent $9,000 on repairs and parts to keep it running. He had replaced every thing he could name except the block and heads. He was waiting for a Dodge Ram on order.
Harvey
Thanks for sharing a painful story. I've heard many of them similar to yours. Lots of owners have been burned like you were but dumped their Fords and promised to never return as you just wrote. The most surprising stories I've heard were told by Ford owners who had an experience similar to yours and then traded their junk '03 or '04 for an '05 somehow hoping that experience would be different.
I understand how someone who needs to haul 30,000 pound gross combined weights would buy an F550 if they didn't know about the 6. 0 engine. Dodge doesn't offer a truck rated for that weight range. The Ford F550 appears to be a nice platform and they include lots of nice features like the OEM factory hydraulic/electronic brake controller using the same technology as BrakeSmart, the in-dash outfitter switches, and OEM boost and transmission temp gauges. I like their appearance also.
I've only talked to one 6. 0 Ford owner who actually worked his truck and survived 200k miles. It was an older guy like me parked next to me one Sunday night at the Flying J in Tacoma, WA early this year. He had an F450/550 and said he normally pulled a car trailer with it but supplemented his activity and income as an occasional RV transporter. He said his survived because he never tried to maintain speed on grades when loaded. He said he always allowed the truck to slow and creep up the hills using light throttle. His engine had not suffered a catastrophic failure but he told me he had still spent $9,000 on repairs and parts to keep it running. He had replaced every thing he could name except the block and heads. He was waiting for a Dodge Ram on order.
Harvey
With all due respect to those who haven't owned one, the Ford Torqueshift does have and use six gear ratios. Read this thread for a good explanation:
TheDieselStop thread
Here's a direct quote from the Motorcraft service manual:
"Gears are enabled/disabled based on clutch faults. Example: if the OD clutch is failed off, all gears requiring the
ODC to be on are disabled (2nd, 4th, and 6th gear). If the OD clutch is failed on, only gears with the ODC on are
commanded (only 2nd, 4th, or 6th gear will be commanded, 1st, 3rd, and 5th will be disabled). "
Glad you asked! :-{}
Gary
TheDieselStop thread
Here's a direct quote from the Motorcraft service manual:
"Gears are enabled/disabled based on clutch faults. Example: if the OD clutch is failed off, all gears requiring the
ODC to be on are disabled (2nd, 4th, and 6th gear). If the OD clutch is failed on, only gears with the ODC on are
commanded (only 2nd, 4th, or 6th gear will be commanded, 1st, 3rd, and 5th will be disabled). "
Glad you asked! :-{}
Gary
Elite1 said:
Nope. TQ peak was and still is advertised as starting at 1600, and I emphasize the word STARTING. If you look closely at the graph posted on the Cummins site the peak is actually runs thru about 1900 rpms before starting to tail off.
Working the engine under 1800 rpms is NOT reccomended and that is from a Cummins rep face to face, not an email that could be answered from Bangladesh. First off, that happens to be right in the torsional vibration range of the engine. I'll leave it to individual assessment to decide whether running and engine in its roughest range is doing no damage.
Second, peak engine efficiency is achieved at slightly beyond peak TQ. Peak efficiency means you are making the most of the energy generated by the engine. That happens around 2000 rpms, which coincidently, is where the ISB is the happiest for maintaining speed and making mileage.
Last, it simply will NOT consistently hold speed under 1800. I am not talking about about towing your race car, the 18 ft camper trailer on the weekends, or a couple bales of hay. I am talking about loading at or above max GCVW and pulling into a grade like the Grapevine, or Cabbage Hill in Oregon, or White Bird in Idaho. The auto will not it let pull that hard under 1800 and all your doing with the manual is accelerating wear. The shift will happen, the only question is when. Translate that to about 90% of actual driving where the grades are a lot shallower and a lot shorter. Much less shifting, better efficiency in fuel, and a lot less overall wear and tear.
As far as the Duramax and PS comparing to Cummins towing, until those motors are built to a comparable spec there is no contest and no real comparison. There is enough data to indicate the Cummins is going to be there long after the others have cried "no maas" several times.
Here is my take having owned 6 Diesel trucks since 1996... 3 Fords and 3 Dodges... all diesels.
1996 Ford F350 SRW CC 4X4 with auto and 3. 55's
1999. 5 Ford F350 CC DRW 4X4 with auto and 4. 10's
2001 Dodge 2500 QC H. O. 6 speed 4X4 with 3. 54's
2003 Dodge 3500 DRW QC H. 0. 6 speed 4X4 with 3. 73's
2004 Ford F350 SRW 4X4 with auto and 3. 73's
2006 Dodge 2500 QC 4X4 with auto and 3. 73's
The 96 and 99. 5 were both very good trucks but towed a smaller trailer than the current one which the other 4 have pulled. The trailer is a 2001 Montana 3670 5th wheel. It is 37' long with three slides and weighs in at 13K lbs ready to tow... . it has been on the scales several times.
All 4 trucks have pulled the trailer with ease and with very little problems. I pull the trailer about 7K miles a year with Colorado and all of its passes a yearly trip. The trucks are driven about 70K miles a year total... most of it with about 500lbs of tools/instruments under a fiberglass flat bed cover. All 4 have had adjustable fueling boxes in the stock to 100HP range.
The 2001 Dodge averaged about 18mpg on the highway day in and day out. It was 11. 5-12 towing.
The 2003 Dodge averaged about 16-16. 5 on the highway and around 10. 5-11 towing.
The 2004 Ford averaged about 17 on the highway and 10-10. 5 towing.
The current 2006 with 5K miles is getting around 18 on the highway and managed around 11. 5 towing the trailer 300 miles last weekend.
The 96 Ford was a little underpowered and undergeared but would get 18 on the highway. The 1999. 5 got real heavy with Ruenel's, winch and the like. It also had a 4" lift on the front with a 2" on the back. It towed the above trailer one time and got around 9mpg. It mustered about 15 on the highway.
Towing impressions. The Cummins definitely have more low end grunt and the ability to maintain speed at a lower RPM on flat ground. They also average 1-1. 5 mpg better than a like PSD empty or towing. That is a FACT as far as I am concerned. However, I have never had a problem whatsover maintaing speed with the PSD's. The 99. 5 would dump OD and pull whatever you asked it too in direct drive with the TC locked. It drank diesel doing it, but it would go up just about anything at 2500-2600 at 60-65 without straining.
The 2001 Dodge as well as the 2003 both H. 0. 's with 6 speeds pulled flat lands in OD like no tomorrow. They however did not perform miracle hill climbing in OD/6th and maintain speed. They were in 5th gear on every hill worth calling a hill to maintain speed. I clearly remember going over most passes in Colorado at about 50mph in either the top of 4th gear or mid 5th gear depending on the pass. They were great towers but not "significantly" better than the PSD.
The 2004 Ford, believe it or not on this site was a good truck. I sold it with 155k miles and not much repair. The turbo was replaced at 70K miles due to an EGR O-ring blowing causing antifreeze to leak into the turbo. Ford fixed it in a day under warranty. I had two egr valves replaced due to sticking causing vacuum leaks and crap power with a lot of smoke. No other problems at all including the transmission..... which was a gem as far as I was concerned. The truck was a good puller with excellent gearing from the transmission. The transmission is advertised as a 5 speed but will utilize 6 "gears" depending on upshifting or downshifting. Second gear at 3500-3600 RPM would only be 40-45 mph. Third would have been the likely gear if running that kind of RPM. The redline on the motor is around 4K, but I could never get the truck to rev past 3500 Rpm while accelerating. It just would not do it... there was rev limiter as others with this engine can attest to. It would rev past this while gearing down, but not while accelerating. With this engine and transmission I found myself towing at faster speeds than the other trucks. The truck would cruise at 75mph all day in OD on flat lands and get pretty good mileage at that speed. It was no slouch up the hills either. It would drop one gear and hold anything the 6 speed Cummins would in 5th. There were several hills that the PSD would actually get over at a better speed than the Cummins would... . alot of HP and torque over 2K.
The 2006 is a little too new to critique. It is the first auto I have had with the Cummins. There is no way it walks off up the hills in OD. Towing the trailer from DFW to East Texas one encounters rolling hills. About half of them... the steeper or longer prompted a down shift to maintain. The truck was not struggling just doing what it needed to do to keep its speed. Not matted or flogged... just driven up the hill at 65 in the gear it wanted to do it in. It acted alot like the 04 PSD... dropped a gear to get it done. There is no way it would pull OD at 60mph up the hills. This was all running the number 2 setting on the Edge box
The Cummins and the PSD have to be driven a little different. The Cummins has a lot of grunt down low and does not like to give up speed. Once it gives it up it is hard to get it back. It is an excellent maintainer. The Ford on the other hand likes RPM like any V8, but will hold its speed and even accelerate if downgeared at the correct time. The engine is just starting to breathe at 2500RPM. It burns more fuel doing it, but I have never had a power issue with them.
I like both trucks and go back and forth between them. The 1996 Ford and the 2001 Dodge were the most trouble free. The 2003 Cummins was a LEMON causing the purchase of the 2004 Ford. I like the 2006 a lot. It is stout with the chip and is getting good mileage for the number of miles on it.
These are simply my opinions on the trucks I have owned. No GMC's ever!!
1996 Ford F350 SRW CC 4X4 with auto and 3. 55's
1999. 5 Ford F350 CC DRW 4X4 with auto and 4. 10's
2001 Dodge 2500 QC H. O. 6 speed 4X4 with 3. 54's
2003 Dodge 3500 DRW QC H. 0. 6 speed 4X4 with 3. 73's
2004 Ford F350 SRW 4X4 with auto and 3. 73's
2006 Dodge 2500 QC 4X4 with auto and 3. 73's
The 96 and 99. 5 were both very good trucks but towed a smaller trailer than the current one which the other 4 have pulled. The trailer is a 2001 Montana 3670 5th wheel. It is 37' long with three slides and weighs in at 13K lbs ready to tow... . it has been on the scales several times.
All 4 trucks have pulled the trailer with ease and with very little problems. I pull the trailer about 7K miles a year with Colorado and all of its passes a yearly trip. The trucks are driven about 70K miles a year total... most of it with about 500lbs of tools/instruments under a fiberglass flat bed cover. All 4 have had adjustable fueling boxes in the stock to 100HP range.
The 2001 Dodge averaged about 18mpg on the highway day in and day out. It was 11. 5-12 towing.
The 2003 Dodge averaged about 16-16. 5 on the highway and around 10. 5-11 towing.
The 2004 Ford averaged about 17 on the highway and 10-10. 5 towing.
The current 2006 with 5K miles is getting around 18 on the highway and managed around 11. 5 towing the trailer 300 miles last weekend.
The 96 Ford was a little underpowered and undergeared but would get 18 on the highway. The 1999. 5 got real heavy with Ruenel's, winch and the like. It also had a 4" lift on the front with a 2" on the back. It towed the above trailer one time and got around 9mpg. It mustered about 15 on the highway.
Towing impressions. The Cummins definitely have more low end grunt and the ability to maintain speed at a lower RPM on flat ground. They also average 1-1. 5 mpg better than a like PSD empty or towing. That is a FACT as far as I am concerned. However, I have never had a problem whatsover maintaing speed with the PSD's. The 99. 5 would dump OD and pull whatever you asked it too in direct drive with the TC locked. It drank diesel doing it, but it would go up just about anything at 2500-2600 at 60-65 without straining.
The 2001 Dodge as well as the 2003 both H. 0. 's with 6 speeds pulled flat lands in OD like no tomorrow. They however did not perform miracle hill climbing in OD/6th and maintain speed. They were in 5th gear on every hill worth calling a hill to maintain speed. I clearly remember going over most passes in Colorado at about 50mph in either the top of 4th gear or mid 5th gear depending on the pass. They were great towers but not "significantly" better than the PSD.
The 2004 Ford, believe it or not on this site was a good truck. I sold it with 155k miles and not much repair. The turbo was replaced at 70K miles due to an EGR O-ring blowing causing antifreeze to leak into the turbo. Ford fixed it in a day under warranty. I had two egr valves replaced due to sticking causing vacuum leaks and crap power with a lot of smoke. No other problems at all including the transmission..... which was a gem as far as I was concerned. The truck was a good puller with excellent gearing from the transmission. The transmission is advertised as a 5 speed but will utilize 6 "gears" depending on upshifting or downshifting. Second gear at 3500-3600 RPM would only be 40-45 mph. Third would have been the likely gear if running that kind of RPM. The redline on the motor is around 4K, but I could never get the truck to rev past 3500 Rpm while accelerating. It just would not do it... there was rev limiter as others with this engine can attest to. It would rev past this while gearing down, but not while accelerating. With this engine and transmission I found myself towing at faster speeds than the other trucks. The truck would cruise at 75mph all day in OD on flat lands and get pretty good mileage at that speed. It was no slouch up the hills either. It would drop one gear and hold anything the 6 speed Cummins would in 5th. There were several hills that the PSD would actually get over at a better speed than the Cummins would... . alot of HP and torque over 2K.
The 2006 is a little too new to critique. It is the first auto I have had with the Cummins. There is no way it walks off up the hills in OD. Towing the trailer from DFW to East Texas one encounters rolling hills. About half of them... the steeper or longer prompted a down shift to maintain. The truck was not struggling just doing what it needed to do to keep its speed. Not matted or flogged... just driven up the hill at 65 in the gear it wanted to do it in. It acted alot like the 04 PSD... dropped a gear to get it done. There is no way it would pull OD at 60mph up the hills. This was all running the number 2 setting on the Edge box
The Cummins and the PSD have to be driven a little different. The Cummins has a lot of grunt down low and does not like to give up speed. Once it gives it up it is hard to get it back. It is an excellent maintainer. The Ford on the other hand likes RPM like any V8, but will hold its speed and even accelerate if downgeared at the correct time. The engine is just starting to breathe at 2500RPM. It burns more fuel doing it, but I have never had a power issue with them.
I like both trucks and go back and forth between them. The 1996 Ford and the 2001 Dodge were the most trouble free. The 2003 Cummins was a LEMON causing the purchase of the 2004 Ford. I like the 2006 a lot. It is stout with the chip and is getting good mileage for the number of miles on it.
These are simply my opinions on the trucks I have owned. No GMC's ever!!
RStroede said:Blacksheep, sounds like you were dealing with the leasing company to take that Ford back, when you should have been pursing the Lemon Law and a lawyer. Sorry for your experience, but nice to hear from a Dodge owner perspective
My truck was not covered under the lemon law, because in Montana any truck over a 1-ton is considered a commercial vehicle and is not covered.
I am comparing my trucks pulling the same trailer... . one of which was 4. 10 geared. Your 4. 10 geared truck at 1600 RPM should be running 47-48mph in OD with lockup. I find it hard to believe it can maintain that speed with a trailer climbing any type of a grade. If the tow/haul button is pressed it would not even shift into OD at that speed, much less lock the TC. My point is that both trucks pull just fine. I have pulled more passes than I can name in Colorado without issue from either trucks. They pulled them just fine neither one of them puking their guts or running at redline in second gear. My experience has been get it out of OD... A MUST lean on her, watch the EGT and pull the top at 50-55mph. Worked everytime in all the trucks without abusing any of them.
I am probably a little uniique in that I have owned three of each and had pretty good luck with all of them . I am fully aware that there have been many problems with the 6. 0 PSD's. . just not mine. My worst truck by far was the 2003 Dodge. It had nothing to do with the engine... but shop time is shop time and mine spent 2 months there in the first 7 months of ownership. I would buy either one and feel good about the purchase. They both have done what I needed them to. If I could build "MY" truck it would be the Cummins in a Ford. The issues I have had with Dodge's have never been with the Cummins!! The Ford has never been with the rest of the truck. If I was yanking a trailer around all the time I would always buy the Cummins... it is a hoss that gets great mileage working its butt off. Unloaded the Ford is more "enjoyable" to drive... for me anyway. It feels more solid and has a better front end underneath it. I have had better results with it other than powerplant which for me works great because I drive it a ton unloaded not placing a lot of strain on it. I need the room, mileage and ability to tow when I need it to. They both seem to fill this bill just fine as far as I have witnessed
I am probably a little uniique in that I have owned three of each and had pretty good luck with all of them . I am fully aware that there have been many problems with the 6. 0 PSD's. . just not mine. My worst truck by far was the 2003 Dodge. It had nothing to do with the engine... but shop time is shop time and mine spent 2 months there in the first 7 months of ownership. I would buy either one and feel good about the purchase. They both have done what I needed them to. If I could build "MY" truck it would be the Cummins in a Ford. The issues I have had with Dodge's have never been with the Cummins!! The Ford has never been with the rest of the truck. If I was yanking a trailer around all the time I would always buy the Cummins... it is a hoss that gets great mileage working its butt off. Unloaded the Ford is more "enjoyable" to drive... for me anyway. It feels more solid and has a better front end underneath it. I have had better results with it other than powerplant which for me works great because I drive it a ton unloaded not placing a lot of strain on it. I need the room, mileage and ability to tow when I need it to. They both seem to fill this bill just fine as far as I have witnessed
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