Towing Comparison: Dodge vs. Ford

[HBarlow]

Cobrajet:



I'm sorry you don't appreciate my opinion. If you go back and reread my post that you are challenging you will see that I wrote that my tach never dropped below 1600 rpm and that I was pulling grades at 1600-1800 rpm in overdrive after turning off the cruise control and allowing my speed to drop to avoid running over the Ford.



Your road speed vs engine rpm figures do not match a Dodge with 4. 10 gears and OEM wheels and tires. My truck runs approximately 60 mph at 1800 rpm, 56 mph at 1700 rpm, and about 53 mph at 1600 rpm. If you go to Klenger's website and review his handy mph/rpm calculation chart you will find that his chart confirms my numbers above.



Harvey

 

[klenger]

You mean this one?

 

[HBarlow]

You mean this one?

Yep, that one. I found your charts/calculators very helpful when I was deciding how to order my present truck.



I really appreciated the low rpm highway cruise capabilities of the 3. 54/6 speed in my '01 but I ordered it when I owned an Airstream or Avion travel trailer. The old aluminum trailers were relatively light and aerodynamic. When I bought a much heavier fifth wheel with far more frontal area the 3. 54 gear was no longer ideal. The truck grunted when getting the load moving and required frequent downshifts to pull the steep grades. Now that I routinely pull heavier fifth wheels I had to give your charts and the comments of many TDR members who owned Gen II Dodge Rams with 47RE/3. 54 or Gen IIIs with 47RE/48RE/3. 73 gearing who questioned their pulling power and fuel mileage lots of thought. After reviewing and thinking about engine rpm in the speed range I normally operate in I decided on the 4. 10. Every gear choice involves a trade-off. After 30k miles, most of them towing, I feel the 4. 10 was the right choice.



Harvey

 

[y-knot]

For the record, I have never towed my trailer in anything but OD. It seems to handle it just fine and I am always running 70-75 mph (1950-2000 rpm). I do have the 4. 10 rear gears which I would never give up, and presently I am running 33" tires.

 

[COBRAJET]

Harvey,



Your opinion is only challenged due to my experience with both trucks pulling the same trailer. I have never had any lack of power in a PSD. I have never had to climb a hill or ANY pass in 2nd gear at 3400 RPM in a PSD pulling a very large fiver... much less a tiny 27' one. A 6. 0 would be around 30-35mph at this speed. My PSD's must have been abnormal because they had little trouble climbing the hills and passes in drive at speed. I guess my Cummins have all been lemons because there is no way they would or will hold OD at 1600-1800 RPM up any kind of hill with my fifth wheel or an enclosed car hauler grossing at about 8K.

 

[HBarlow]

Second gear at 3500-3600 RPM would only be 40-45 mph. Third would have been the likely gear if running that kind of RPM.



Your opinion is only challenged due to my experience with both trucks pulling the same trailer. I have never had any lack of power in a PSD. I have never had to climb a hill or ANY pass in 2nd gear at 3400 RPM in a PSD pulling a very large fiver... much less a tiny 27' one. A 6. 0 would be around 30-35mph at this speed.



Cobrajet,



In your previous posts quoted above you disputed my initial report stating once that the Ford would be running at only 40-45 mph at 3500-3600 rpm then in the more recent post you stated that the Ford would only be doing 30-35 mph at that rpm. After reading both posts I wondered what the road speed of a Ford spinning high rpm in second gear really is. I don't have a handy source available listing the gear ratios of Ford's automatic transmission, I'll do a little research and obtain them later.



Using klenger's road speed and rpm chart again as an estimate assuming that the 2nd gear ratio in the two transmissions are roughly similar I see that a Dodge with 3. 73 gears and 47RE or48RE automatic transmission running at 3300 rpm in second gear would produce a road speed of 57 mph. My fellow transporter said his Ford was geared 3. 73. Klenger's chart doesn't extend beyond 3300 rpm and I didn't calculate the road speed matching the higher rpm but looking at the chart it seems reasonable to expand the engine rpm upward and estimate that the Ford would be capable of close to 60 mph in second gear at 3400 rpm.



My traveling buddy driving the Ford told me that he thought his Ford had downshifted to second gear at he reported his tach was reading approximately 3400 rpm the time I called him on the CB radio. I don't remember exactly what speed we were running but as I reported in my initial post, my Dodge was still in overdrive. Klenger's road speed/rpm chart verifies that my Dodge could have been running around 55-60 mph in the rpm range I reported. That is about what I remember.



You can certainly disagree with or challenge my opinion about the desirability of a Ford as a tow vehicle, I wouldn't care to own one and you seem to like them which is your absolute right, but the facts of my report seem to be generally supported by klenger's chart.



Again, my point was that my Dodge-Cummins was able to pull a steep grade in overdrive that caused a Ford to downshift and rev to 3400 rpm.



Harvey

 

[klenger]

Using the worksheet mentioned above, speed at higher RPMs can easily be calculated by doubling a lower RPM. I. e. speed at 3600 RPM would be double the speed at 1800 RPM. The worksheet can also be modified as required for any application.

 

[alexanderJ]

As a relatively new and first time '05 CTD owner with a 48RE, this thread has been of interest to me. I pull a 6000 lb travel trailer and do not particulary feel the need to get in any hurry.



I usually drive around 60 mph on the highway, frequently dropping down to 55 mph on country roads. Since I can't lock out OD on my '05, is my only answer to speed up? 60 is just a hair under 1600 rpm and by looking at the overhead, sure gives better fuel milage than 65 or 70mph.



I know the overhead is usually generous but would I actually get not only better performance, but also better fuel milage at say 1700rpm? I still can't undrstand why DC decided the '05 would be the only year they would not allow OD lockout.

 

[COBRAJET]

Harvey,



The second gear ratios are not very close since the Ford is a 5 speed and the Dodge is a 4. The Ford ratio's are 3. 09/2. 2/1. 54/1. 0/. 71. The Dodge has a 1. 5 ratio in second versus the Ford's 2. 2. With stock tires and 3. 73's the Ford would be at 38-40 at 3400RPM in second and 56-60 in third.



Driving both trucks for hundreds of thousand miles each I have never found a hill that would require two downshifts from one truck and none from the other. I have always towed at around 70-75 mph on flat roads... . a little slower in the hills. I have only towed with the 48RE one time for about 300 miles. The truck, trailer and occupants grossed at 20,765. It pulls great, but came out of OD quite a few times maintaining 65-70 mph through what I would call moderate hills in East Texas. This is 1600-1800 RPM for my truck. Your 4. 10's versus my 3. 73's should not be a HUGE difference.



The 2001 and 2003 Cummins 6 speeds were out of OD quite often in the hills. The 06 trucks have more power, but mine were chipped. Like I said before if I was hauling day in and day out I would have keys to a CUMMINS... it pulls better.

 

[GaryCarter]

Chill... .

Cobrajet is telling it like it is in my experience. The 6. 0 is hard to beat (stock) on a hard hill because 1- it loves to rev; and 2- it has two more gears to work with.



Relevant to the original post, in my experience the Dodge cruise control holds speed very steady, within +/- 1 mph normally. The 6. 0 cruise control did not handle grades well. It would drop 3-5 mph, then unlock the TC, downshift to 4th, scream like a jet to regain speed, then shift back into 5th or sometimes 6th with the TC unlocked to finish the grade. It would even shift on minor grades.

Now imagine, if you will sitting behind the wheel for 12 hours towing. On the one hand the Cummins is in OD 99% of the time. A rare hill will pull it into direct (3rd with TC locked). On the other hand the 6. 0 shifts gears at every rise. And, consistent with Cobrajet's post, every downshift sucks fuel. It's just not a relaxing experience.



That sums up why I ditched the 6. 0 and went back to Dodge. Not because the 6. 0 won't pull, but because I just got tired listening to all the gear changes.



Gary



On edit- this was as much the cruise control as the engine; I could keep the 6L Ford in OD most of the time driving with my foot. However it was always more ready to downshift than the Cummins.

 

[jimnance]

I really don't care if they think GM and Ford out pull my CTD. Fact is, they will never have the quality and reliability of the CTD.



I'm not sure how my current CTD compares to the current Fords and GM's. In '03 I ran with a couple of friends that had a Ford and a GM diesel. Though I was about 1,000 to 2,000 lbs heavier we all ran real close up the hills.



Now, I have an Edge Attitude, and so far no one has passed me going up the hill with anything close to a comparable load. Sure, some day I'll run up against some other CTD member that is loaded for Bear. For now, I'm running faster than most anyone up the hills.



Don't care 'bout Ferds or Dura-turds. My CTD works good for me. Dependable to. :-laf



Iwouldn't mind having the six speed Allison transmission though. :{

 

[Remmy]

I also never experienced any lack of power with my 2003 6. 0 F350. The truck was very fast and I'm pretty sure my Cummins 600 would have a heck of a time passing a Ford 6. 0 on a hill.

 

[HBarlow]

Cobrajet:



If in fact the second gear ratio of the Ford is 2. 2:1 as you reported, and it seems reasonable because with five speeds the gears would be spaced differently than in the Dodge automatic, I will agree with you that the Ford was probably in 3rd gear not 2nd as the Ford guy told me and I reported. I plugged the 2. 2:1 ratio figure you supplied into klenger's calculator and it produced speeds of approximately 37-40 mph at the rpm reported. We were going faster than that so his Ford would have more likely been in 3rd gear.



That is still a two gear downshift from overdrive and a significantly lower gear and higher torque multiplication than the Dodge-Cummins in overdrive.



For those who claim the Ford is very fast, nobody is disputing that. I readily acknowledge that Fords will accelerate quickly. But fast acceleration is a very different factor than the power to maintain speed in overdrive or direct on a grade when heavily loaded. That is what matters to me. If I wanted an engine that would rev to redline on every hill I would have saved a lot of money and bought a Chevy small block gas motor. I don't and didn't.



Just for chuckles today I reviewed the 6. 0 engine forums on the DieselStop website. I cannot understand how Ford owners could continue to deceive themselves and each other about the product. One out of every 10 or 15 threads was about lemon law claims, arbitration hearings, and buy backs by Ford Motor Company. Turbo failures, oil leaks, coolant leaks and loss, oil in coolant or coolant in the oil sump, failed injectors, bad wiring harnesses, catastrophic failures, and other disasters were frequent subjects discussed. Occasionally a member would accuse another member of being a troll or other pretender when he reported his disgust with repeated failures with his Ford. It was comical but sad.



Harvey

 

[COBRAJET]

Harvey,



I think a lot of the time we see what we want to out of Brand X... . we chose our truck for a reason... a damn valid one as far as we are concerned. I am just trying to offer an opinion on both since I have "LIVED" with them. There are numerous complaints on this site as well. In looking through the first three pages of this category and engine and transmission there are no fewer than 20 threads from people with complaints or issues from mileage, sputtering, no starts, noise at upshift, clutch pedal is rough, love 06... . but, check engine light, P0251 code, 2006 injector pump fails, truck broke. . need help now, truck died, CARNAGE, injector fuel in oil, 2006 engine failure, power steering leaking, A/C problems, drive line vibration, castor way off, 06 RECALLS, shuttering during launch, and many other numerous complaints. This is not even counting the 911 help boards. I usually just hope they get their's fixed and I don't have the problem... which has worked so far for the most part on both brands.



Truck guys are usually rabid about their brand either from excellent results from it over the years or they are converts from a bad experience from the other brand. I personally can live with either and have enough common sense to realize crap trucks occassionally roll out of the plant. I have owned one... and it was an 03 Cummins. I am back in an 06 after another 150K in an 04 Ford with relatively... no money out of pocket... except for the 100 deduct. My 01 Dodge was great. The new truck has already been back to the shop to get the cruise fixed... just quit working the second week I had it. It is fixed now... but a shop visit ALWAYS sucks.



I am happy for you and anyone else regardless of brand that has a good truck and no complaints. I have just found it... knock on wood on both sides of the fence.

 

[KParsons]

ford- 500 million in truck repair

a week ago there was a story that ford had to spend 500 mil a year on 04 and 05 truck warr. they said 06 was somewhat better . this was lowering there investment grade stock etc.

 

[jimnance]

a week ago there was a story that ford had to spend 500 mil a year on 04 and 05 truck warr. they said 06 was somewhat better . this was lowering there investment grade stock etc.

This news has been out for quite some time. Yes, the 6. 0 has been very troublesome for Ford. My brother has one of the old 7. 3 litre Powerstroke engines and has 170,000 trouble free miles. That was a very good engine, but I think they had to develop a new engine to meet emissions requirements.

Unfortunately, the relationship between Ford and Navistar (International) has soured a bit. Partly because of the problems with the 6. 0, but also Fords decision not to buy a V-6 that Navistar developed for Ford SUV's and similar vehicles.



Luckily, Izuzu, the maker of the D-Max has a great deal of experience with mid-small engine diesel engine technology and GM has benefitted from that.



Luckily, for Dodge, they have been able to stay with the basic diesel technology that basically created this market. Incremental advancements in the basic 6BT engine have kept pains to a minimum. Not that the process has been entirely trouble free, but I sense from reviewing the Ford, GM, and this board that we have had less trouble than the others.



Much of the recent trouble for all the makers has been the horsepower wars and the need to meet ever tighter federal diesel emissions standards. This has pushed the makers into technologies not as well tested as the original 6BT first installed in what, '89? We've got high pressure common rail with computer controlled injectors. Not novel technology, but I beleive the pressures we see are much higher than on the automotive side.



Me, I'm happy to have a first gen Dodge in my Garage. It's my daily driver and I love it. My other two are tow vehicles and also serve me very well.



I don't want to bash the competition. If someone would just take a Ford chassis/cab, with the Allsion six speed and put in the Cummins engine I think they'd sell like hotcakes!

 

[klenger]

If someone would just take a Ford chassis/cab, with the Allsion six speed and put in the Cummins engine I think they'd sell like hotcakes!

The new Chassis cab with the Cummins 6. 7 and six speed auto may just fit the bill.

 

[DavidBurt]

With any luck the new 6. 7L won't have to many problems or a ridiculous price due to all the new emission equipment. That variable geometry turbo sure sounds nice though.

Dave