Towing Legislation

[HBarlow]

My only problem with this is that someone innocent has to be injured or killed for the offending person to be punished beyond a $300 moving violation. The life of me and my family is on the line when it comes to untrained (or at least uneducated) RV'ers or folks hauling a 18k GVWR 5er behind their Chevy 2500.

Then, like said previously, they would just drive anyway with out a license or insurance.

The reality is that driving a large RV/truck with large trailer is totally different than what is taught in a drivers ed course or simple dirving handbook. Conceptually they are the same, but the realities are not.

You and I have a very different philosophy of life. I will agree to disagree with you and will continue to believe as I do.

The actual numbers of RV trailer pullers and motorhome drivers who have accidents that injure another person are probably extremely small measured in terms of numbers of registered RVs or RV miles traveled and, in my opinion, present a very small threat to the motoring public. Most often they come to the attention of others because, as evident in an earlier post, the motorhome driver or large fifth wheel trailer puller offends some socialist/liberal because the observer resents the RVers ownership and enjoyment of such a luxurious product and his ability to travel and enjoy it.

The federal government and state governments already have so many laws, regulations, rules, and guidelines on the books even the empty suit legislators who pass them and flunky bureaucrats who interpret and apply them are confused by them. We have overlapping and contradictory laws and rules that no one understands already.

I'll say it again, I don't want any more stupid laws or restrictions on my freedom.

 

[GAmes]

How 'bout the insurance companies offer discounts if you have taken classes and you have a good driving record?

As far as I know that has been the case for over 50 years... ... lower premiums for safe drivers. I know my insurance shot up after I rolled a car as a teen ager. I believe discounts for drivers safety courses has been around for a lot of years also.

 

[HBarlow]

... ... ... ... ... How 'bout the insurance companies offer discounts if you have taken classes and you have a good driving record? It's the insurance companies that have to pay out when one of these untrained drivers have a wreck, this idea may benefit everyone... ..... quote]

That is such an excellent idea that many insurance companies are already doing just that. My own insurance company, USAA, has offered discounts for years for those who complete driver training and also those who have no accidents. I think it is actually pretty common throughout the insurance industry.

I think we can safely assume that the poor fellow who is the subject of this thread will pay dearly with his insurance premiums at renewal time . . . if his insurance company is even willing to ensure him again at renewal time.

When the guy gets through paying for all his damages and losses after deductibles are taken on each item, pays fines if imposed, and pays his future insurance premiums he's not going to walk away from his mishap undamaged.

 

[LBARTLETT]

Paveman, I certainly wasn't arguing, like you said and I agree I was only pointing out laws are only good for those that comply with them, I'm supposed to have a CDL to pull my tandem dual trailer which would allow me to exceed 26,000#, since I have moved to Tx I have not taken the time to get it, but I will but at 55 yrs old experienced in driving everything from tanks to lawnmovers and pulling things on the farm that can't be pulled on the highways I'm probably safer than someone who at 65 retires from the city, buys and RV and heads out on the highway BUT at present I am violating the law.



Surfbeetle makes a good point about insurance companies as I have a good discount for no accidents or tickets in probably 20 years, I'll bet if they gave a decent discount for trailer towing training many would take it. The only beef I ever had with insurance companies is the front ends of our Dodges makes them one to the highest rated vehicles there is for repairs. I used to run the replacement bumpers which almost removed any chance of front end damage from a deer, cow or about anything other than a head-on vehicle to vehicle but I couldn't get my company to give me a discount



Yes this is an excellent discussion

 

[Pavemen]

You and I have a very different philosophy of life. I will agree to disagree with you and will continue to believe as I do.

If you want to do things without training away from my private property and out of the public space, then go right ahead. Shoot your guns, pull your trailers, or whatever else floats your boat.

However I have the right to life and you do not have the right to take it from me. If you are doing something beyond normal and reasonable human behaviors that poses a threat to my life, I would hope that you had some training, be it private hands-on lessons in a classroom, reading a handbook, or state mandated education.

Possessing a firearm within any lethal distance of my own or public space, driving on my property or on public roads, etc. pose a threat to me and if you have some training in proper operations then I have no problems with it.

Would you just give your kid the keys to your truck with a large RV connected to it and a gun on his hip and tell him to go have fun, without at least educating him a little on how things work and the issues to consider (either at the immediate moment or over your previous time with him) or putting him through drivers ed and a basic firearms course? Not just for his own safety, but that of everyone around him.

I think that we have very similar philosophies on life, live and let live, right? However, to truly live you need to take personal responsibility and make considerations for others, that is where the training and such comes into play.

 

[Pavemen]

Paveman, I certainly wasn't arguing, like you said and I agree I was only pointing out laws are only good for those that comply with them, I'm supposed to have a CDL to pull my tandem dual trailer which would allow me to exceed 26,000#, since I have moved to Tx I have not taken the time to get it, but I will but at 55 yrs old experienced in driving everything from tanks to lawnmovers and pulling things on the farm that can't be pulled on the highways I'm probably safer than someone who at 65 retires from the city, buys and RV and heads out on the highway BUT at present I am violating the law.

I do not disagree that you are likely a better 'illegal' driver than a properly licensed one. However, if the newly retired and now RV owner from the city is properly licensed, then he has at least proven he has some knowledge in the operation of such a vehicle and its inherent difference in driving requirements.

Much better than someone walking in, dropping a big pile of cash on the table and hooking up a 18k 32' 5er to his newly acquired 1-ton CTD he traded in his Prius for an hour earlier and driving off the lot and pulling onto the highway right next to your wife and new born in their car without ever having pulled anything bigger than a 4x6 uhaul utility trailer, if that.

 

[Pavemen]

BTW, this is fun, lets keep going. I am all for playing devil's advocate at times, but I am not here. I am all for personal responsibility and freedom and all that. Its just that things that can bring harm to others due to being uneducated about those things bothers me.

 

[HBarlow]

If you want to do things without training away from my private property and out of the public space, then go right ahead. Shoot your guns, pull your trailers, or whatever else floats your boat.

However I have the right to life and you do not have the right to take it from me. If you are doing something beyond normal and reasonable human behaviors that poses a threat to my life, I would hope that you had some training, be it private hands-on lessons in a classroom, reading a handbook, or state mandated education.

Possessing a firearm within any lethal distance of my own or public space, driving on my property or on public roads, etc. pose a threat to me and if you have some training in proper operations then I have no problems with it.

Would you just give your kid the keys to your truck with a large RV connected to it and a gun on his hip and tell him to go have fun, without at least educating him a little on how things work and the issues to consider (either at the immediate moment or over your previous time with him) or putting him through drivers ed and a basic firearms course? Not just for his own safety, but that of everyone around him.

I think that we have very similar philosophies on life, live and let live, right? However, to truly live you need to take personal responsibility and make considerations for others, that is where the training and such comes into play.

That's a pretty distorted and illogical argument. I don't know who it was actually addressed to as I took none of the positions you are arguing against. I said nothing, nada, zip, zero about guns although I do hold a CHL and do carry a handgun when I feel the need. I'll guess that you don't approve of that either. As I stated in another post, I hold a CDL Class A license which anyone should know required training and testing.

Nobody is talking about doing anything to you or on your private property.

The original argument is most of us do not want government regulation to deal with a very tiny minority of the population that will further restrict our freedoms. There are already adequate if not excessive laws and regulations to deal with someone who does anything on your private property w/o your permission or anyone who causes you or your family member harm.

Let's stick to the basic argument: I do believe in personal responsibility. That is the fundamental reason underlying my position against further control imposed by government. You apparently favor it. That is your right. I strongly disagree.

 

[KFranco]

Personal responsibility... do parents even know what that is anymore when training there kids. Unfortunetly, I believe we are in age where personal responsibility is fading fast. Blame the other guy. It's how our political system works. I remember warning a kid leaning to far out the train window that he might get hurt. I didn't see a parent around so I felt the need to do so. The parent wasn't around because I saw him coming from afar when his child then began to chew me out. This parent then proceeded to chew me out also saying to mind my own business. I have 3 kids of my own and like my dad taught me I teach them... NEVER talk back to an adult even if they are wrong in your mind. Let me handle it. It is this group that I fear has grown up now and has no idea about personal responsibility and they teach their kids such. For example, the subject of this thread (which may not be true but will be used for illustrative purposes) may be one of these types. Instead of accepting personal responsibility for what he did he might blame everyone else but himself. He'll blame the dealer for not informing him properly as well as the RV company for not telling him what to do. It's this kind of person that has no personal responsibility and will blame others. I began this thread not really knowing how I felt about the issue but the more I read each post I am beginning to think that legislating this would be futile. I'm reminded of a society which has very little government interference in their lives. They don't experience recessions, support themselves, work hard, are great neighbors and understand personal responsibilty. This group is the Amish. When I camp in Pennsylvania we interact with them all the time. These people live happy and thrive with government help. So I reasoned then, how is more government involvement helping us... It isn't. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in the grave if he knew what was going on with our government today. He said, "Sad is the day when the people fear the government and not the government fearing the people" Wise words.

 

[KFranco]

These people live happy and thrive with LITTLE government help. So I reasoned then, how is more government involvement helping us... It isn't.

Edit above: additon of the word LITTLE

 

[HBarlow]

Personal responsibility... do parents even know what that is anymore when training there kids. Unfortunetly, I believe we are in age where personal responsibility is fading fast. Blame the other guy. It's how our political system works. I remember warning a kid leaning to far out the train window that he might get hurt. I didn't see a parent around so I felt the need to do so. The parent wasn't around because I saw him coming from afar when his child then began to chew me out. This parent then proceeded to chew me out also saying to mind my own business. I have 3 kids of my own and like my dad taught me I teach them... NEVER talk back to an adult even if they are wrong in your mind. Let me handle it. It is this group that I fear has grown up now and has no idea about personal responsibility and they teach their kids such. For example, the subject of this thread (which may not be true but will be used for illustrative purposes) may be one of these types. Instead of accepting personal responsibility for what he did he might blame everyone else but himself. He'll blame the dealer for not informing him properly as well as the RV company for not telling him what to do. It's this kind of person that has no personal responsibility and will blame others. I began this thread not really knowing how I felt about the issue but the more I read each post I am beginning to think that legislating this would be futile. I'm reminded of a society which has very little government interference in their lives. They don't experience recessions, support themselves, work hard, are great neighbors and understand personal responsibilty. This group is the Amish. When I camp in Pennsylvania we interact with them all the time. These people live happy and thrive with government help. So I reasoned then, how is more government involvement helping us... It isn't. Thomas Jefferson would be rolling in the grave if he knew what was going on with our government today. He said, "Sad is the day when the people fear the government and not the government fearing the people" Wise words.

Ditto! I agree with you. The accuracy of your premise is proven by the current occupant of the White House and the majority party in the Congress. Folks needing/wanting handouts from government elected them.

I also admire the Amish. When I worked out of IN transporting RVs a year of so ago I interacted with the Amish whenever I had the opportunity. I found Amish electricians who could rebuild the high mileage alternators on two Dodges. Their work is perfect! Honest, integrity, dependability, and self-reliance are some of the words that describe the Amish. Unfortunately, thousands of Indiana Amish are now in trouble in the Elkhart/Goshen area as is the rest of the northeastern IN population because the lure of high wages pulled them into the RV industry. They are now laid off and returning to their farms. To their credit they are not whining for handouts like so many "English" as they refer to us.

 

[LBARTLETT]

GREAT EXAMPLE KFranco with the Amish



It seems as our country is becoming more divided, not from the government but from what we people want and expect



My son's in the Army, re-enlisted after being enlisted, working for Edward Jones, then back in as an officer this time. Just finished Ranger school, started with 540 and finished with 102 without recycles, I'm always amazed when I'm around the bases, kids, smart kids, young men & women who are there because they want to be, there's still hope for us



without a doubt things will change, either the majority will want more for less [/U]or[/U] will go back to our founding roots,



as I watch the unrest in Iran I wonder if it could happen in America? people getting fed up and taking to the streets. Americans have done it over far less than freedom. They did it about a war I was in about 35 years ago



Seems the difference is us old types can't seem to all get together at once. Most of us still have jobs.



Oh well, this thread has sure been interesting for me, I'll shut up now

 

[KFranco]

Seems the difference is us old types can't seem to all get together at once. Most of us still have jobs.

Ya saying I'm old? :-laf You'd be surprised to learn that I'm only 32. I do have "Old" if you will, values passed on to me. I believe in them. My dad put me behind the wheel at the age of 3. Of course I sat on his lap but it was these moments we shared and he was able to infuse into me over time respect for vehicles. I also was fortunate enough to get behind my first class8 peterbuilt hauling gravel at 13! I was however, limited to the private roads within the mine until I was 16. My dad or trusted teacher was always with me until they felt I was ready... no just because I passed a test. I will do the same with my kids.

 

[THoltz]

Partial Quote " I'll say it again, I don't want any more stupid laws or restrictions on my freedom. "



Amen, Mr. Barlow. I agree with your viewpoint on government interference.

 

[MA2LA]

Damn my head is hurting from all of this. . as much as I hate having goverment in our lives theres somethings that have to be done. es most of us on here know how to handle a trailer and do what we have to no problem but its down right scary the amount of people towing who have no clue. when manufactures boast about how much thier 1/2 ton can tow and people rush out and buy it and then try to tow that much because they were told they could, that is a big problem, theres no way i would want to tow 10k with a half ton. . could i do it . . yes because i have lean over the years how to handle trailers and what to do when things go wroung. It sacres the crap out of me that some one with no idea of what they are doing can go buy a big rv and then hook another 10k behind it and just drive off in to the sunset and hopefully not over me or my family. something should be done plain and simple. either that or allow us to stop those we see doing something stupid on the road knock some sence in to them.

 

[THoltz]

No matter what the government does, and no matter what the intent, no licensing process will instill knowledge by experience, responsibility, safe driving and good decision making when not in the presence of a police officer. Law's are only effective for the law abiding. I wonder how many people out condem the guy towing a huge RV with a half-ton truck but then go out there and tow their rig at 80 mph? I see it all the time in Arizona, especially on I-8 and I-10 going to and coming back from the California sand dunes. I don't need another law to prohibit me from a behavior that I choose not to engage in. It's just another government hoop to jump thru.

 

[Pavemen]

That's a pretty distorted and illogical argument. I don't know who it was actually addressed to as I took none of the positions you are arguing against. I said nothing, nada, zip, zero about guns although I do hold a CHL and do carry a handgun when I feel the need. I'll guess that you don't approve of that either. As I stated in another post, I hold a CDL Class A license which anyone should know required training and testing.

Nobody is talking about doing anything to you or on your private property.

The original argument is most of us do not want government regulation to deal with a very tiny minority of the population that will further restrict our freedoms. There are already adequate if not excessive laws and regulations to deal with someone who does anything on your private property w/o your permission or anyone who causes you or your family member harm.

Let's stick to the basic argument: I do believe in personal responsibility. That is the fundamental reason underlying my position against further control imposed by government. You apparently favor it. That is your right. I strongly disagree.

I guess I am not being clear enough. I agree with you 99%. Its that 1% that we differ on. I am for personal responsibility, I am for less government and more freedoms (I fall between a centrist and a libertarian to be honest).

Sorry for talking guns in my quote of your post. it was RVTRKN that had commented about firearms. Either way, I like my guns and my trucks and what personal freedoms we have left. However, I choose to be responsible and educate myself on the way my guns work and how my truck is different than a Prius, especially with a 14k gooseneck behind it.

The point I am trying to make is that the initial discussion is about needing additional licensing/endorsements for large trailers where you are under 26,000lb GVWR. Several folks indicated that they did not want more laws requiring such licenses and I stated the CA already has such endorsements for RV use but not equipment trailers of the same GVWR.

I am simply arguing that large trailers (over 10k GVWR) where GCWR is under 26k should need some form of education for drivers before they are allowed to handle vehicles of such size that they are inherently different than a standard automobile a Class C is good for. I am not saying that a full skills test and medical cert and log books are required, but a simple "read the handbook and take a multiple choice test" for the endorsement is a simple and easy and overall inexpensive way to ensure the driver has at least been exposed to the issues of towing large loads. No more, no less.

Then it spewed into what it currently is, a thread about how much law is too much. I am only suggesting that if an activity that has a reasonable expectation of causing injury to a person that is not willingly participating in or spectating then perpaps the activity needs some form of education or training for those that are participating. Simple as that. An example of things would be gun ownership, take a basic class or prove military experience then you are fine. Its that things that are not even near being common knowledge that I worry about people being allowed to wihtout ensuring some form of education and put others at risk.

My other point about personal/public property was that I don't care what you on your property whether or not you are licensed, trained, educated, endorsed, certified or whatever as long as it can not impact others that are on their own property or in public space. If you want to tow 100,000 lb oversized loads on dollied lowboys and you have no training or experience in that, do it on your property and I do not care. Do it near my property or on public property I have an issue with that. Shoot yoru guns all you want as long there is absolutley no way one of your shots can reach my property or public space. That is the point I am trying to make. Feel free to do whatever you want as long as it does not create danger for others not partaking in the "whatever".

Lets enforce what we have and repeal/rewrite those that are confusing, no longer valid, contradictory or otherwise stupid.

 

[Pavemen]

No matter what the government does, and no matter what the intent, no licensing process will instill knowledge by experience, responsibility, safe driving and good decision making when not in the presence of a police officer. Law's are only effective for the law abiding. I wonder how many people out condem the guy towing a huge RV with a half-ton truck but then go out there and tow their rig at 80 mph? I see it all the time in Arizona, especially on I-8 and I-10 going to and coming back from the California sand dunes. I don't need another law to prohibit me from a behavior that I choose not to engage in. It's just another government hoop to jump thru.

but see, if the driver is properly licensed and endorsed for the load, at least they have been exposed to the "right way". they do not have to follow those rules/suggestions, however they have been made aware and any claims of ignorance goes out the window. Now, if they are caught violating the law, then the punishment can be harsher and more of a deterrent for the next time.

would you be for not requiring drivers licensing and test at all then? perhaps the basic Class C testing should be adjusted to include heavy trailer discussion and then drop the endorsements issue completely? I would be for that. It fits your desire for less gov't and my desire for better understanding of the non-typical driving scenarios.

 

[surfbeetle]

Question

So I just realized that I haven't read the thread for the other post that this one is based on, anyone have the link?

 

[HBarlow]

Paveman,

I believe that most adult human beings act in what they believe to be their own best interest. Yes, we sometimes make mistakes but a photograph of one foolish young man who laid his truck and toyhauler on their sides on the highway and spilled his toys simply does not persuade me that we need to have special driver's training, testing, or licensing for government to allow us to pull a trailer.

A centrist is someone who doesn't really hold any strong personal beliefs but bounces back and forth issue to issue depending on public opinion. A libertarian believes in his or her absolute right to freedom from government tyranny. To say you are somewhere between means you aren't sure what you believe.

You can't claim to be a libertarian while arguing for more restrictive government rules to regulate the behavior of free men.

One of the many reasons I left CA in 1988 was the creeping tendency toward socialism or "big brotherism. "

CA already has all the restrictive freedom denying rules a good socialist could want and then some including all sorts of goofy motor vehicle and driver licensing rules. If you like special driver's licenses for every reason you are in the right place.

Generally speaking, Texas has maintained a culture and politics of personal responsibility and personal freedom. I don't want anything from CA here!