Towing Legislation

[AMink]

As I guessed you have somehow attached a legality tag to a manufacturer's rating. As thousands of farmers, ranchers, hot shotters, car haulers, trailer transporters and yes, RVers will tell you that RATING has no legal standing. As long as the driver has the right license type and the vehicle is registered for the weights it is carrying/pulling as is the trailer, and the tires are not loaded beyond their ratings (and DOT does care about that), just about anything is legal as far as towing with pickups go.

I'll take your word for it. There have been discussions back and forth about the manufacturer's ratings and if they are legal. Yes, no, maybe so.



Back to the original question, legislation does not make safer drivers. Experience does. As noted, there are plenty of licensed drivers who shouldn't even be allowed to ride the bus, let alone drive a car. No special license for towing a trailer.

 

[GAmes]

Legislation is why there is so much confusion as to what is legal and illegal. No other state agrees with CA as to what drivers license is required to pull a trailer over 10,000 pounds. No other state, to my knowledge, has the same requirements for a non-commercial Class A drivers license as TX, in fact most states have no non-commercial class A available. WI requires an endorsement to pull recreation doubles, who else does? How many times have you seen the question asked about RV doubles legality and the bogus web sites that supposedly list the requirements? Let's not even get into the internet myths of what is legal. The best thing about driving commercially is that all states have to comply with FMCSR, so the rules are the same.

 

[HBarlow]

Gary is correct. Federal and state DOT enforcement officers have no idea and less interest in what Dodge/GM/Furd says the gross combined weight ratings of their trucks are or the maximum weight of trailers they can pull. That information is about on cooling systems, brakes, and durability of clutches, transmissions, and rear ends. The information published by manufacturers can only be found in a product brochure and is bogus anyway. It is based on a truck they will never build, a 2wd single cab with zero optional equipment

DOT cops do know where to find the GVWR and GAWR figures and do enforce those ratings as well as maximum registered weights.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

As I guessed you have somehow attached a legality tag to a manufacturer's rating. As thousands of farmers, ranchers, hot shotters, car haulers, trailer transporters and yes, RVers will tell you that RATING has no legal standing. As long as the driver has the right license type and the vehicle is registered for the weights it is carrying/pulling as is the trailer, and the tires are not loaded beyond their ratings (and DOT does care about that), just about anything is legal as far as towing with pickups go.

A question - while it may be true that DOT, and perhaps the various state highway patrols don't or won't enforce on the basis of manufacturers weight ratings, what happens in the case of a serious accident, possibly involving a fatality - what is the insurance company's stance likely to be in a lawsuit, that of the listed weight rating - or that of DOT and the highway patrol?

 

[AClayton]

My wife works for a very large insurance co. and she is a trainer for insurance adjusters. Their plan states simply that:The insurance company pays for the vehicle or trailer that is damaged..... whether through negligence or other causes. A liability adjuster comes into play when circumstances allow information from the DOT officer or highway patrolman... in this case,depending on how serious the accident was or whether a fatality was a result,it is determined whether the insurance company pays or not. From what I've been told,the overwhelming majority suggests that the Insurance Company WILL pay for your negligence even if the odds are seriously stacked-up against you. Naturally,the Company will ultimately have the 'last laugh' if you will by raising your rates.



Alan

 

[GAmes]

A question - while it may be true that DOT, and perhaps the various state highway patrols don't or won't enforce on the basis of manufacturers weight ratings, what happens in the case of a serious accident, possibly involving a fatality - what is the insurance company's stance likely to be in a lawsuit, that of the listed weight rating - or that of DOT and the highway patrol?

If you are infering that the insurance company can deny coverage, that is one of those internet myths I was referring to. Have you ever read your policy? If it was against the law to be over the ratings I and Harvey and a lot of other members would have a glove box full of tickets. I'm sure that if you are violating a law i. e. too fast for conditions, failure to yield, etc an LEO would issue that citaton and the insurance company could raise your rates or deny renewal. Other than that??? And who is to say that being over the ratings causes wrecks anyway? The only consequence I have seen is accelerated wear on the drivetrain.

 

[THoltz]

I believe you can be found negligent, and therefore liable for damage your rig causes if you are towing in excess of your tow rating, by any decent ambulance chaser. The negligence is the act of towing in excess of your rating.

 

[Pavemen]

you may not get cited and the insurance may pay for damages, but wait for the civil suit from whomever else was involved and has a claim. The plaintiff simply has to put out enough evidence to be reasonably accepted by the judge/jury as true. A civil suit could be way worse than any adjustment in your insurance rates or fines from a citation. If you could have reasonably known that you were overweight or something else.

 

[HBarlow]

I believe you can be found negligent, and therefore liable for damage your rig causes if you are towing in excess of your tow rating, by any decent ambulance chaser. The negligence is the act of towing in excess of your rating.

What "tow rating" are you writing about?

If you are referring to the manufacturer's GCWR ie gross combined weight rating or the manufacturer's maximum trailer tow rate you are unfortunately misinformed. Is is just not true.

Nobody gives a hoot about that rating and few ever heard of it. The only place where those numbers ever show up are in the marketing hype in the sales brochures. DOT officers DO NOT have this info and don't care about it.

When the RV industry was busy a couple of years ago there were literally several thousand of us RV transporters covering the highways of 48 states, sometimes 49 states, and most of the Canadian provinces on any given day of the year often towing heavy trailers.

One of the largest, most prominent, and most professionally run transport companies in the industry was (is) Horizon Transport of Wakarusa, IN. They hire full-time compliance guys who closely monitored everything we did. One of their first requirements was that our trucks, ordinary dually pickups in most cases, had to be registered for 26,000 lbs. Mine was and so was my '06. I was inspected by DOT officers on numerouis occasions and except for one "no log book" issue (another story) I was always completely in compliance.

Federal and state DOT officers consider whatever weight the truck is registered for as the legitimate maximum weight AS LONG AS the tow vehicle does not exceed it's GVWR or GAWRs.

There are hundreds of hotshotters pulling heavy tandem dually gooseneck flatbeds hauling general commodities or, like member EB, oilfield components. Their trucks are legally registered for 30,000, even 40,000 lbs. and they are required to cross every scale they encounter.

There is simply no truth whatsoever to the internet myths that are spoken as gosple every day regarding factory combined weight ratings and threats that your insurance company will drop you if you have an accident and are overweight. Insurance companies are regulated by state governments and generally speaking are not allowed to drop their insured until after the claims are settled unless, possibly, the insured has provided false information to the insuror or is in violation of policy restrictions.

I have a CDL A which allows me to pull any combination vehicle I can tow as long as I don't exceed my truck's GVWR or GAWRs. I have crossed scales at gross weights in the 25xxx lb. range and once was waived through a Kansas scale pulling a very large, very heavy, Alfa Gold that was owned by an elderly retired couple and contained everthing they owned. I was probably at 29,000 to 30,000 lbs. It was legal because the trailer was registered and had it's own license plate so I could exceed my own registered weight of 26,000 lbs.

 

[HBarlow]

I believe you can be found negligent, and therefore liable for damage your rig causes if you are towing in excess of your tow rating, by any decent ambulance chaser. The negligence is the act of towing in excess of your rating.

I doubt it.

A crooked ambulance chaser and a stupid jury might be capable of finding someone negligent for having the bottom of his tires touching the pavement but a good defense lawyer would probably prevent it. It is perfectly legal to tow up to a combined weight of 26,000 lbs. with an ordinary driver's license in most states as long as the truck and trailer are registered for the appropriate weight and GVWR and gross axle weight ratings are not exceeded.

The "tow rating" some of you are referring to is based on the manufacturer's engineering department's testing of brakes, ability of the cooling system to handle the heat load, their calculations of torque and load handling ability of their drivelines, and other engineering factors that effect durablilty and warranty claims.

 

[HBarlow]

My wife works for a very large insurance co. and she is a trainer for insurance adjusters. Their plan states simply that:The insurance company pays for the vehicle or trailer that is damaged..... whether through negligence or other causes. A liability adjuster comes into play when circumstances allow information from the DOT officer or highway patrolman... in this case,depending on how serious the accident was or whether a fatality was a result,it is determined whether the insurance company pays or not. From what I've been told,the overwhelming majority suggests that the Insurance Company WILL pay for your negligence even if the odds are seriously stacked-up against you. Naturally,the Company will ultimately have the 'last laugh' if you will by raising your rates.

Alan

I agree with this. The insurance company might jack up the insurance premiums or even cancel the policy but only after they pay the claim and settle any court judgements up to maximum policy limits.

I was an insurance adjuster for a year back in the '90s (hated it) and saw a few weird claims. The company I worked for paid some claims even though the "insured" had allowed his or her policy to lapse by failing to pay the premiums.

 

[GAmes]

I believe you can be found negligent, and therefore liable for damage your rig causes ... ... ... .....

True, if your rig CAUSES damage, it doesn't matter what weight you are at. You will be found at fault and your insurance will pay. Kind of a no brainer I believe. If I had the time I'd tell you about a friend of mine who lost his life savings defending his actions when he WAS NOT at fault in a fatality wreck. Thanks to scumbag lawyers, a moron judge and overloaded court dockets it took him nearly 7 years to finally have the civil case against him dismissed. He was never charged with a traffic violation, in fact the DPS officer on the scene testified early on that my friend had done everything in his power and done every thing correctly to avoid the wreck. Despite that it dragged on for years.

 

[steved]

It is clearly stated in/on your hitch, bumper, owners manual and taged on your trailer what your weights are. Personel responsibility comes to mind here, even though I feel for the individual this thread is aimed at, he had to of known he was over weight, but did it anyway.

But a stiff fine for EXCEEDING those "recommendations" wouldn't be a bad idea... that helps keep people honest and within those guidelines. Keep in mind, most of the GVWs/GCVWs are only "recommendations" on non-commercial vehicles. I think you could have existing regulations ENFORCED and not have much additional regulations... stop turning a blind eye towards obvious unsafe acts.



Not that I want everyone to be scaled, but the Duramax towing the triple axle gooseneck loaded with a fully loaded tri-axle dump truck on I-44 needs to be stopped. (And yes, I actually saw this on a trip to New Mexico). I figured he must have been grossing almost 90k driving down the road (7k for the truck, 13k for the trailer, and 70k for the loaded dump truck)... how safe is he?



While I don't want additional government regulations any more than the next guy, I also don't want to be plowed over by the 20k pound motorhome driven by the 95 year old guy who had a known medical problem interfere with his driving abilities. Nor do I want to be crunched because the guy with the Duramax lost control of his almost 90k pound load at the intersection I was crossing.



I would rather be safe than dead. And again, enforcing current regulation (as opposed to making new regulations) would cut down on a lot of the unsafe acts we see every day.

 

[steved]

I doubt it.





The "tow rating" some of you are referring to is based on the manufacturer's engineering department's testing of brakes, ability of the cooling system to handle the heat load, their calculations of torque and load handling ability of their drivelines, and other engineering factors that effect durablilty and warranty claims.

However, some of these "ratings" are nothing more than recommendations...

 

[steved]

I have a CDL A which allows me to pull any combination vehicle I can tow as long as I don't exceed my truck's GVWR or GAWRs. I have crossed scales at gross weights in the 25xxx lb. range and once was waived through a Kansas scale pulling a very large, very heavy, Alfa Gold that was owned by an elderly retired couple and contained everthing they owned. I was probably at 29,000 to 30,000 lbs. It was legal because the trailer was registered and had it's own license plate so I could exceed my own registered weight of 26,000 lbs.

But does that make it safe?

BTW, I have a Class A (with all the endorsements) too...

 

[GAmes]

But does that make it safe?

Does that make it not safe?

 

[steved]

Does that make it not safe?

As long as he was at/under his truck's GCVW no...



But that piece of paper stating a "registered weight" means squat. States will register vehicles to higher weight classes than they are designed for simply because they get more revenue.



I had a W150 at one point that was "registered" at 12k GVW... does that magically mean the truck can now haul 12k?? Its still the same truck, with the same sticker in the door stating 5200 pounds GVW... I just pay more for that piece of paper stating it has a GVW of 12k. Does that piece of paper somehow make the truck safe to haul 12k?



If the mechanics of the vehicle dictate a specific GVW/GCVW by design, then how is that safe to follow a piece of paper, issued by a nobody, at a higher GVW/GCVW? And just to be clear, I'm not arguing about whether the engineers know what they are doing/rating a piece of equipment (lets assume for the moment the door tag is 100% legit)... but rather the DMV registering a vehicle for more than its manufactured weight rating.



And don't get me wrong, I know a lot of us haul more than the rated GVW/GCVW... but we also *know* our equipment... its those that *don't* know their equipment that get into trouble. And that's where we need to work on improvements... informing those that are getting into RVing the limitations.



There are a lot of faults with our current system, mainly that common sense is pushed to the side for the almighty dollar...

 

[AMink]

As long as he was at/under his truck's GCVW no...



But that piece of paper stating a "registered weight" means squat. States will register vehicles to higher weight classes than they are designed for simply because they get more revenue.



I had a W150 at one point that was "registered" at 12k GVW... does that magically mean the truck can now haul 12k?? Its still the same truck, with the same sticker in the door stating 5200 pounds GVW... I just pay more for that piece of paper stating it has a GVW of 12k. Does that piece of paper somehow make the truck safe to haul 12k?



If the mechanics of the vehicle dictate a specific GVW/GCVW by design, then how is that safe to follow a piece of paper, issued by a nobody, at a higher GVW/GCVW? And just to be clear, I'm not arguing about whether the engineers know what they are doing/rating a piece of equipment (lets assume for the moment the door tag is 100% legit)... but rather the DMV registering a vehicle for more than its manufactured weight rating.



And don't get me wrong, I know a lot of us haul more than the rated GVW/GCVW... but we also *know* our equipment... its those that *don't* know their equipment that get into trouble. And that's where we need to work on improvements... informing those that are getting into RVing the limitations.



There are a lot of faults with our current system, mainly that common sense is pushed to the side for the almighty dollar...

I registered a D50 at 10,001# to avoid smog inspections. If I put that much in that truck, it would have been flat. It surprises me that DMV allows registration at a higher weight than the rating. Not that trucks can't be upgraded to haul or tow heavier loads safely, but that the gov't actually allows it.

 

[HBarlow]

Of course I was safe hauling the big trailer. My truck was not overloaded. I was within both the factory GVWR and GAWRs. Yes, the big Alfa was heavy but it had six electric brakes, properly adjusted and funtioning properly, and I use a BrakeSmart brake controller which provided perfectly matched and modulated truck and trailer braking.

You guys are still hung up on the meaningless combined weight rating which has more to do with protecting Dodge from warranty claims for a trashed driveline than highway safety. If the GCWR was meaningful it would be posted on the VIN decal in the door frame. It is not even a legitmate number anyway. It deliberately implies that the truck weighs 1000 to 1500 lbs. less than it actually weighs going down the highway.

The comparison to a D-50 compact truck registered at 10,000 lbs. is not valid. Obviously that was just fraud. Any tongue/kingpin weight at all on a D-50 would exceed its gross axle rating and gross vehicle weight rating.

 

[AMink]

Of course I was safe hauling the big trailer. My truck was not overloaded. I was within both the factory GVWR and GAWRs. Yes, the big Alfa was heavy but it had six electric brakes, properly adjusted and funtioning properly, and I use a BrakeSmart brake controller which provided perfectly matched and modulated truck and trailer braking.



You guys are still hung up on the meaningless combined weight rating which has more to do with protecting Dodge from warranty claims for a trashed driveline than highway safety. If the GCWR was meaningful it would be posted on the VIN decal in the door frame. It is not even a legitmate number anyway. It deliberately implies that the truck weighs 1000 to 1500 lbs. less than it actually weighs going down the highway.



The comparison to a D-50 compact truck registered at 10,000 lbs. is not valid. Obviously that was just fraud. Any tongue/kingpin weight at all on a D-50 would exceed its gross axle rating and gross vehicle weight rating.

DMV suggested that I do it that way. I didn't know you could register at a different weight than what is listed on the sticker. Wasn't my idea, but it got me out of having to smog (at that time, back in the late '80's). I agree that a D-50 couldn't do what that number implied.