2nd Gen Non-Engine/Transmission Towing over recommended weight

[SMalafy]

2001 4x4 auto 3.56 rear Was looking to buy a 5th wheel toyhauler that is 600 lbs heavier dry weight (13,660) than towing spec recommends. Add the bike and miscellaneous things it would probably be around 15K. Hitch weight would be ok at 2,536 lbs
Has anyone towed over the recommended weight before and what results did you have. I have a Smarty programmer where I can increase the power if needed. Would I be alright getting the trailer

 

[Ozymandias]

My buddy has the same vehicle and that weight all the time as in Switzerland it is rated for 20'000lbs bumper pull trailers
And yes we have mountains.

So, you should be good.

 

[SMalafy]

My buddy has the same vehicle and that weight all the time as in Switzerland it is rated for 20'000lbs bumper pull trailers
And yes we have mountains.

So, you should be good.

I hope so. I live in West by God Virginia with lots of mountains. 20,000 lb bumper pull seems extreme to me !

 

[petersonj]

Has anyone towed over the recommended weight before and what results did you have. I have a Smarty programmer where I can increase the power if needed. Would I be alright getting the trailer

If I am figuring right, your combined weight will be well over 22,000 lbs and you have a Smarty programmer to increase the power if needed.

What about slowing it down, or holding a specific speed on long downgrades without using the service brakes? An automatic transmission has only four gears and one of them is overdrive. A stock transmission only locks up in the top two gears.

You don't mention what (if any) modifications have been done to the transmission, or if you have an exhaust brake.

I wouldn't be comfortable towing heavy with the above combination. I have towed up to 21,000 combined weight many times, but I also have a 6 speed manual transmission and an exhaust brake. I do not have to use the service brakes coming down long grades - even with 20 mph curves on 7% grades. I would not want to do that with a 47RE unless it was modified for heavy towing which would include converter lockup in every forward gear and an exhaust brake.

- John

 

[SMalafy]

I tried to update the things on my truck but looks like they did not accept it in my profile although they added the pic. I bought a Rev max towing valve body but really no other up grades. An exhaust brake would be great but that and the compressor would be a lot and I am not sure about installing it all. Don't know whether its easy or hard.

 

[SMalafy]

If I am figuring right, your combined weight will be well over 22,000 lbs and you have a Smarty programmer to increase the power if needed.

What about slowing it down, or holding a specific speed on long downgrades without using the service brakes? An automatic transmission has only four gears and one of them is overdrive. A stock transmission only locks up in the top two gears.

You don't mention what (if any) modifications have been done to the transmission, or if you have an exhaust brake.

I wouldn't be comfortable towing heavy with the above combination. I have towed up to 21,000 combined weight many times, but I also have a 6 speed manual transmission and an exhaust brake. I do not have to use the service brakes coming down long grades - even with 20 mph curves on 7% grades. I would not want to do that with a 47RE unless it was modified for heavy towing which would include converter lockup in every forward gear and an exhaust brake.

- John

Trailer is 14,200. Bike is 600lb and then say another 1,000 lbs. How do you come up with over 22K

 

[endoscott]

To me an exhaust brake is a no-brainer. If it seems too expensive think about the cost of a wreck coming downhill around curves in the mountains. Then add on the medical expenses and you got real expensive real fast. Don't forget to factor in the value of your stomach lining when the service brakes just don't quite feel good enough. And also the cost of replacing same service brakes which will wear twice as fast with no exhaust brake. Our small 5th wheel only weighs 10,500 and even with that light load I appreciate the exhaust brake. I put one on my old 2003 truck, can't remember cost but it was pretty good. Nothing like the integrated ones on the new trucks, but still pretty good. We are well over 100,000 miles on the 2014 and never had to do brakes yet.

 

[SMalafy]

To me an exhaust brake is a no-brainer. If it seems too expensive think about the cost of a wreck coming downhill around curves in the mountains. Then add on the medical expenses and you got real expensive real fast. Don't forget to factor in the value of your stomach lining when the service brakes just don't quite feel good enough. And also the cost of replacing same service brakes which will wear twice as fast with no exhaust brake. Our small 5th wheel only weighs 10,500 and even with that light load I appreciate the exhaust brake. I put one on my old 2003 truck, can't remember cost but it was pretty good. Nothing like the integrated ones on the new trucks, but still pretty good. We are well over 100,000 miles on the 2014 and never had to do brakes yet.

I started looking after you mentioned it and it seems PAC brake has the whole kit for a little over 1,200 bucks. Was going to do a 4 inch exhaust too as I still have the stock on and its has a few small holes here and there in the pipe and muffler. The RV also has 3 axles.

 

[endoscott]

Keep us posted if you pull the trigger and maybe a couple pics of the install. I think after you with that for a while you will wonder how you got along without it. I run mine always on Auto mode, not just when towing. Exhaust system probably not that expensive either, can't remember what we paid for the MBRP exhaust. I think it was stainless steel possibly but memory not sharp on that. My son has the old truck and it's still on there, probably 15 years old by now.

 

[NIsaacs]

Trailer is 14,200. Bike is 600lb and then say another 1,000 lbs. How do you come up with over 22K

He is adding in your truck, about 7k plus.

 

[SMalafy]

Thanks, I was wondering how he came to that. I thought his math was off

 

[GAmes]

I used to have a Dodge/Cummins with an automatic. Totally stock it spun the center out of the flexplate while towing a 9000 pound 5th wheel. I traded it for the truck I have now and went through 12 NV4500s before I upgraded to the G56. I regularly tow over the recommended 20,000 GCWR, which I'm pretty sure is the same you have. The reason I'm focused on transmissions is because yours is woefully weak for what you are contemplating.

Empty weight means nothing to anyone except the transporter who delivered it to the dealer. I'm reasonably confident that your estimate of loaded pin weight is low. Toyhaulers are nose heavy to compensate for weight in the garage so unless your "bike" is a full dress Harley along with the required toolbox and spare parts you are looking at about 3000 pounds of pin weight.

All this means is you need, IMO, an upgraded transmission complete with a lockup switch for an exhaust brake and some significant suspension upgrades on the 2500. Once you do the math, it might cost less to buy a truck that was designed for that big a trailer.

 

[Ozymandias]

I hope so. I live in West by God Virginia with lots of mountains. 20,000 lb bumper pull seems extreme to me !

Pretty normal in Switzerland though, the importer of the vehicle can set the tow rating and has to prove this physically to our DOT.
So the hitch is much different, also the subframe assembly is much much stronger.
The new ones have about 34k bumper pull rating.

We do not have fifth wheel on pickups as that would need a different drivers license and several other legal adjustments that makes them very unattractive.

 

[bcbender]

Another thing to consider is the worst case situation of an at fault accident. I've towed with my 04 HO 3500 (6spd) over the 24k GCVWR with my 16k 5er, but was not much if more than 1k over when fully loaded cross county trips, usually fuel and food so variable. If grossly overweight and investigated it could be an issue as the truck is not rated for the load and might get sticky with the DOT and Insurance co. Just my 0,02C, as stated, maybe better to upgrade truck vs adding parts, my 20' is more truck than I need now, (on paper) and that's how I'd prefer to roll in this political and litigious society we find ourselves in.

 

[Topzide]

@bcbender brings up valid point, but even if you're not at fault, with the over the numbers can flip the script on you and you'd be at "fault". The agreement would be that if you were not over loaded, you would've been able to avoid the accident! Just something to consider in today's world. Plenty of lawyers out there to turn the table on you, let alone the injury factor to you or your family if something were to go wrong! Might be well worth getting a newer truck versus upgrading current. Serious thought needed on this setup.

 

[Tuesdak]

I suggest you consider a smaller RV as you haven't purchased it yet. Specifically one your pickup is rated to handle. If you must have a giant RV than get a tow vehicle that's able to comfortably handle it. It makes for an enjoyable experience when your rig can handle it. If you insist on using your current pickup again consider a smaller/lighter RV that won't tear it up. Finding out the weak links on your "overloaded" pickup is expensive starting with the rear tires possibly overloaded. Transmission. Suspension, brakes, and a white knuckle experience when it's running between tearing things up.

After all the mods there is one thing YOU can't change and that's the door sticker and rated towing weight. An upfitter can change the door sticker but good luck on something this old. As mentioned above there are many lawyer ads for RV wrecks and being overweight is Gross Negligence. "That overloaded rig should not have even been on the road!" In Arizona insurance companies use the "Stupid Law" and walk away from coverage for overloaded TV situations. I had this exact conversation with my family attorney who advised me of cases he had seen insurance deny coverage for an overloaded tow vehicle. Don't trust the "It's ok internet": call your attorney who will keep you out of jail and/or bankruptcy. One case was a overloaded pickup and GN trailer ... How fun to owe money on both when they are totaled and be lucky there were no dead bodies.

Consider a job as a truck driver because an RV this big is pretty close to being one. IMO a big RV is more work than "fun vacation."
3 axles is 6 tires that are nothing but trouble. Parking it, getting it in and out of places, changing lanes are all harder with a longer RV.

 

[GAmes]

I had this exact conversation with my family attorney who advised me of cases he had seen insurance deny coverage for an overloaded tow vehicle.

When speaking to your attorney did you ask if you could lose everything you own even if you are within the manufacturer's specs and operating within the law and have compensated for highway conditions? Did you ask if the insurance company had a clause that exempted overloaded vehicle operation?

A friend of mine had a head-on collision with an uninsured Mexican national who was passing an 18 wheeler on a curve and going up a hill. He attempted to avoid the collision by heading toward the ditch but didn't have the time needed. The Mexican bounced his recently purchased little car off the front end of my friend's Suburban and went under the trailer wheels of the rig. He, his brother and seven year old son died. My friend died enroute to the hospital, but was resuscitated. The Mexicans' family sued. The rig's insurance company paid because it cost less than a court battle. My friend's insurance company wanted to do the same but my friend said no way. That would infer that it was his fault that the three had died, and he wasn't having it. The family then went after my friend's assets. Lawyers fees nearly bankrupted him before the case was finally thrown out. He was left too handicapped to work, in fact he couldn't even get into a boat and fish. Miserable tort laws in TX are to blame. One other thing, no one went after the dealer who let the guy drive off the lot without insurance.

As far as denying coverage, if you take a look at your policy there should be an exemptions section. Mine says nothing about operating overloaded. If I have a wreck while high on cocaine with three hookers in the backseat I expect them to pay. No exemption for that either.

 

[Tuesdak]

When speaking to your attorney did you ask if you could lose everything you own even if you are within the manufacturer's specs and operating within the law and have compensated for highway conditions? Did you ask if the insurance company had a clause that exempted overloaded vehicle operation?

A friend of mine had a head-on collision with an uninsured Mexican national who was passing an 18 wheeler on a curve and going up a hill. He attempted to avoid the collision by heading toward the ditch but didn't have the time needed. The Mexican bounced his recently purchased little car off the front end of my friend's Suburban and went under the trailer wheels of the rig. He, his brother and seven year old son died. My friend died enroute to the hospital, but was resuscitated. The Mexicans' family sued. The rig's insurance company paid because it cost less than a court battle. My friend's insurance company wanted to do the same but my friend said no way. That would infer that it was his fault that the three had died, and he wasn't having it. The family then went after my friend's assets. Lawyers fees nearly bankrupted him before the case was finally thrown out. He was left too handicapped to work, in fact he couldn't even get into a boat and fish. Miserable tort laws in TX are to blame. One other thing, no one went after the dealer who let the guy drive off the lot without insurance.

As far as denying coverage, if you take a look at your policy there should be an exemptions section. Mine says nothing about operating overloaded. If I have a wreck while high on cocaine with three hookers in the backseat I expect them to pay. No exemption for that either.

Yeah, advice is Get A Dash Cam.

Been there done that and a front row seat to family that went through something similar. They still suffer to this day. We did hold the people who sold them the 15 passenger van upside down by the ankles, but, neither a pot to pi$$ in or a window to throw it out of were found afterwards. Interesting thing about 1st party recovery for insurance payouts under uninsured motorist...

I am sure you would like to see less DWI and other disregard for their and other's safety on our roads. When the cops get done throwing the book at cocaine and hookers insurance coverage will be the least of their problems.

It was a surprise to me to learn that AZ's law allowed insurance companies off the hook for some things. Oddly stolen vehicles are one thing that void their insurance coverage when stolen. Just ask the folks down the street where a DWI stolen vehicle plowed into their parked in the driveway Ford Excursion after a sideways slide through their front lawn. Their own insurance wasn't adequate.

At the end of the day the OP has a choice when purchasing a RV that could avoid some problems mentioned above. Or getting a more truck if they wish to get an RV this heavy/big.

 

[slowmover]

No one is going to scrape up wrecked vehicles and weigh
them.

Get this thought squared away: fault does not matter.
There are no accidents.

Too fast for conditions is always the problem. These trucks can’t emergency maneuver at 55-MPH, forget going faster with a trailer and trying something.

Pickup & Trailer with Anti-lock Disc Brakes on every axle. See TUSON for their offerings, as well as for their brake controller. Nothing better. Trailer converted to MOR/ryde independent suspension.

Exhaust Brake won’t make up for bad choices. I drove big truck without one for fifteen years. Famous downgrades. Common sense ain’t common.

58-62/MPH is the sweet spot. Or less. The skill to acquire is Maximim Vehicke Separation the day long. Becomes habit to be by one’s self. The easy day. The mirrors foretell your future. Learn to manage traffic around soonest. I’ve covered the country at 62, recently. Do your part (learned) and there aren’t backups of any consequence.


The stoopids in the left lane of this image (eastbound from OKC towards Tulsa on the Turnpike) haven’t the IQ needed to never be in a situation where ahead, behind, and athwart they are surrounded and have no way out.

“Oh, but I am in a hurry”. (Right).

This was at the point of clearing the eastern edge of metro OKC, and they’re all trying to step on it. Don’t give a rats behind about the family out ahead of me in the U-Haul straight truck and two cars (I’m too close) moving all their worldly possessions.

95% pure selfishness to be seen today. Can’t back off a little and let traffic spread out. Nope, they’ll do this the next thirty miles. Try to be smarter, not just courteous.

One doesn’t “make time” via his travel speed. He makes it by planning all of his stops in advance, and in keeping a good pace. Road, Load, Traffic & Weather don’t care.

Leaving the campground at 10:00 and driving till dark is poor planning and worse execution. Reduce risk the most by avoiding high volume traffic. That’s from 1100 onwards anywhere in the US.

Pre-dawn departure nets the most time on road with the least friction. Be off the road by or before 1500.

The worse the combined rig the more difficult it is to push along. A straight-axle, high COG TV with rear drums and a leaf-sprung junk hauler with slides & electric drums . . that’s the worst possible configuration for stability at speed.

1). Plan the stops the night before.
2). Leave EARLY.
3). Use 58-62/MPH to get maximum braking effectiveness and lowered wind problems.
4). Set camp and enjoy a leisurely dinner.

Early to bed, and early to rise is part of vacation.
Take a nap mid-afternoon and it’s like starting over.

Being out in Nature is to savor Dawn & Dusk.
A driving vacation has an open road at sunrise.
A nice campground has every other pleasantry you choose for your Eventide.

“Getting Away” is staying far from the herd.

.

 

[Tuesdak]

No one is going to scrape up wrecked vehicles and weigh
them.

Yeah, no need with the known and easy to obtain dry weight numbers in this example already being over the TV's OEM approved numbers.

Predawn is the worst time for falling asleep behind the wheel. It's also (dark) the worst time for large road rats like Elk to be darting out into the road.