TP Oil Bypass Filter: Installation and Observations

[rbattelle]

Originally posted by bpenrod

Rbattelle,

Where did you mount your bypass that the hoses were contacting those points? Any pic's??

Check out my album. Suffice to say that the return hose comes down vertically from the filter port, contacts the shock tower, then bends it's way up around the air inlet tube over to the oil filler cap. The way the hose bends takes it right by the intercooler clamp. It's hard to describe, and I should have taken some photos. Sorry.



But in addition to the chaffing, I no longer want to route the return to the valve cover... I want to return to the pan instead.

 

[Peter Campbell]

Industrial, military and heavier commercial applications of bypass filtration are normally part of the design. Usually mounted right on the engine. On a casting mated to the block. Proper remote mounting is a difficult undertaking. It usually includes design criteria such as unsupported line length, stress relief, vibration resistance or flexibility, and freedom from chafing in the movement of the lines or nearby components. For a fuel system I can go by trial and error. The truck will cease to run if I am wrong, and cause some small damage to the fuel system. I thought of these things when I was considering a pre luber. Then I heard reports of the line separating and destroying engines ( pre luber), that made it not worth it. I will tire of this truck well before I have a bottom end failure using delo 400 and regular oil changes. If anyone one person lost an engine due to a failure these systems it would make the risk/cost not worth the dubious value added.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Proper remote mounting is a difficult undertaking. "



WELL, I might sorta question that - I'm hardly a genious with tools, and have successfully managed to install these filters on a half-dozen or so vehicles, and not melted down a single engine to date - maybe I'm just lucky...



Maybe we can again simply state they are not for everyone, and just leave it at that...

 

[rbattelle]

You just gotta use some brains when you install them, that's all. I really want something that is bulletproof and simple (which is why I bought the Cummins in the first place). I just felt that my installation was neither of those. Time to step back and rethink.

 

[Ralph Wood]

Re: I uninstalled this system

Originally posted by rbattelle

Well, this morning I uninstalled the TP bypass filter. Let me begin by saying, I WANT a TP bypass filter arrangement; I believe they are an excellent investment in engine life.

I removed it because I discovered something that scared me. My return line, as it left the filter, was routed past the first intercooler hose clamp on the turbo. In 1 week, contact between that clamp and my hydraulic line resulted in a 1/16 inch-deep abrasive wear spot in the hydraulic hose.

To abate the problem, I bought some 5/8 heater hose to place over the wear spots. But, after thinking about it for some time, I decided that it would, of course, only be a matter of time (probably a very short time) before contact with either the clamp or the shock tower (which the return line also contacted) would wear right through the heater hose and begin eating the hydralic hose.

Combine those facts with my realization that installation of the bypass filter introduced 14 new potential failure points into my engine. And, I no longer like the idea of routing the return line up to the oil filler cap (although that's certainly the most convenient way of doing it). I would much much prefer to run it right back to the oil pan. Remember - this is the oil system we're messing with here: it is the life's blood of your engine. If you begin pumping oil out of the engine, by the time it shows up on your oil pressure gauge the engine will be toast.

So, here I sit with this huge dilemma: I want the clean oil provided by the bypass filter, but I don't want the increased chance for failure. It's a dispute between my two fundamental beliefs: durability and simplicity. In this case, simplicity won (for now). I am going to take some time and research other ways to route the return line back to the crankcase, and try to maximize simplicity while minimizing potential failure points.

I *might* also wait to re-install the filter until after at least the 36K mile warranty is up, as I fear the dealer voiding the warranty for anything he doesn't understand (and many people just don't understand the TP filter).

Gary, you've got a heck of an arrangement with yours. I just want to re-think my own installation to make it more "robust".

I have used the Frantz for over 40 years and the Motor Guard almost as long. Your engine doesn't care which of the TP filters you use for lube oil. Under the same conditions the oil analysis will be the same. I can understand why Motor Guard gave up automotive filters in the seventies for industrial use, it is a lot simpler.

For fuel use a Motor Guard. It is designed to be a one pass filter. I just installed a Motor Guard on a 12 valve Cummins at work using a modified Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. When you install a bypass filter in the conventional way with a "T" at the oil pressure switch you are not effecting the oil pressure but you are sometimes getting a false reading because you are robbing pressure off the gauge. Oil should be clean 100 percent of the time. When using a TP filter you need to understand that it is doing all the work. The full flow filter is grabbing anything large that might get into the oil.

Today I am setting up a dual remote ATF filter for a new Dodge Cummins. That is a sweet sounding engine. We did the lube oil last week. That filter has been on two Powerstrokes.



Ralph

 

[MMeier]

rbatelle, not to flame you or anything. BUT: durability , you bought a Cummins for Pete's sake, and 2 : simplicity, you have one large a22 oil filter doing its thing already! What am I missing here?

 

[rbattelle]

Originally posted by MMeier

rbatelle, not to flame you or anything. BUT: durability , you bought a Cummins for Pete's sake, and 2 : simplicity, you have one large a22 oil filter doing its thing already! What am I missing here?

Precisely why I removed the TP filter... for now. I will work out a most rugged mounting system, then reinstall later.



Ralph,



The Motor Guard is a fine filter, and I very much like it's design. I've just got to be more careful with my installation, that's all.

 

[Ralph Wood]

Re: I uninstalled this system

Originally posted by rbattelle

Well, this morning I uninstalled the TP bypass filter. Let me begin by saying, I WANT a TP bypass filter arrangement; I believe they are an excellent investment in engine life.



I removed it because I discovered something that scared me. My return line, as it left the filter, was routed past the first intercooler hose clamp on the turbo. In 1 week, contact between that clamp and my hydraulic line resulted in a 1/16 inch-deep abrasive wear spot in the hydraulic hose.



To abate the problem, I bought some 5/8 heater hose to place over the wear spots. But, after thinking about it for some time, I decided that it would, of course, only be a matter of time (probably a very short time) before contact with either the clamp or the shock tower (which the return line also contacted) would wear right through the heater hose and begin eating the hydralic hose.



Combine those facts with my realization that installation of the bypass filter introduced 14 new potential failure points into my engine. And, I no longer like the idea of routing the return line up to the oil filler cap (although that's certainly the most convenient way of doing it). I would much much prefer to run it right back to the oil pan. Remember - this is the oil system we're messing with here: it is the life's blood of your engine. If you begin pumping oil out of the engine, by the time it shows up on your oil pressure gauge the engine will be toast.



So, here I sit with this huge dilemma: I want the clean oil provided by the bypass filter, but I don't want the increased chance for failure. It's a dispute between my two fundamental beliefs: durability and simplicity. In this case, simplicity won (for now). I am going to take some time and research other ways to route the return line back to the crankcase, and try to maximize simplicity while minimizing potential failure points.



I *might* also wait to re-install the filter until after at least the 36K mile warranty is up, as I fear the dealer voiding the warranty for anything he doesn't understand (and many people just don't understand the TP filter).



Gary, you've got a heck of an arrangement with yours. I just want to re-think my own installation to make it more "robust".

I have used the Frantz for over 40 years and the Motor Guard almost as long. Your engine doesn't care which of the TP filters you use for lube oil. Under the same conditions the oil analysis will be the same. I can understand why Motor Guard gave up automotive filters in the seventies for industrial use, it is a lot simpler.

For fuel use a Motor Guard. It is designed to be a one pass filter. I just installed a Motor Guard on a 12 valve Cummins at work using a modified Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. When you install a bypass filter in the conventional way with a "T" at the oil pressure switch you are not effecting the oil pressure but you are sometimes getting a false reading because you are robbing pressure off the gauge. Oil should be clean 100 percent of the time. When using a TP filter you need to understand that it is doing all the work. The full flow filter is grabbing anything large that might get into the oil.

Today I am setting up a dual remote ATF filter for a new Dodge Cummins. That is a sweet sounding engine. We did the lube oil last week. That filter has been on two Powerstrokes.



Ralph

 

[Ralph Wood]

Re: I uninstalled this system

Originally posted by rbattelle

Well, this morning I uninstalled the TP bypass filter. Let me begin by saying, I WANT a TP bypass filter arrangement; I believe they are an excellent investment in engine life.



I removed it because I discovered something that scared me. My return line, as it left the filter, was routed past the first intercooler hose clamp on the turbo. In 1 week, contact between that clamp and my hydraulic line resulted in a 1/16 inch-deep abrasive wear spot in the hydraulic hose.



To abate the problem, I bought some 5/8 heater hose to place over the wear spots. But, after thinking about it for some time, I decided that it would, of course, only be a matter of time (probably a very short time) before contact with either the clamp or the shock tower (which the return line also contacted) would wear right through the heater hose and begin eating the hydralic hose.



Combine those facts with my realization that installation of the bypass filter introduced 14 new potential failure points into my engine. And, I no longer like the idea of routing the return line up to the oil filler cap (although that's certainly the most convenient way of doing it). I would much much prefer to run it right back to the oil pan. Remember - this is the oil system we're messing with here: it is the life's blood of your engine. If you begin pumping oil out of the engine, by the time it shows up on your oil pressure gauge the engine will be toast.



So, here I sit with this huge dilemma: I want the clean oil provided by the bypass filter, but I don't want the increased chance for failure. It's a dispute between my two fundamental beliefs: durability and simplicity. In this case, simplicity won (for now). I am going to take some time and research other ways to route the return line back to the crankcase, and try to maximize simplicity while minimizing potential failure points.



I *might* also wait to re-install the filter until after at least the 36K mile warranty is up, as I fear the dealer voiding the warranty for anything he doesn't understand (and many people just don't understand the TP filter).



Gary, you've got a heck of an arrangement with yours. I just want to re-think my own installation to make it more "robust".

When you start doing things like adding a "T" at the inlet of the filter you need to think like a plumber. The pressure in the engine is going to be normal but the oil pressure at the tee is going to be low until the filter gets full. As long as the oil is flowing thru the filter the oil pressure to the "T" is going to be low. I use the pipe plug in the top of the filter mount for pressure That is non restricted oil pressure.

I noticed on the new Dodge Cummins that the pipe plug was metric and I needed a metric adapter. I returned the clean oil to the turbo return tube. I prefer to install the filters using the Perma-Cool sandwich adapter. It doesn't take oil off the system. They also reduce the pressure difference across the element and increase the efficiency of the filter.



Ralph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Ralph, I strongly suspect that your use of the "sandwich" is doing EXACTLY the same thing as using the plug most of us use - the oil supply at the head of the stock full flow filter where your "sandwich" is, is at the same point in oil flow and pressure as the plug - merely an inch or so lower...



You gain absolutely nothing...

 

[rbattelle]

Re: Re: I uninstalled this system

Originally posted by RalphWood

I returned the clean oil to the turbo return tube.

Ralph

Now why didn't I think of that!?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Now why didn't I think of that!?"



WELL, for one thing, *I* sure would NOT want to in any way impede or compromize maximum lube flow thru the turbo - and trying to add increased lube flow thru that line MIGHT do that...

 

[rbattelle]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

"Now why didn't I think of that!?"



WELL, for one thing, *I* sure would NOT want to in any way impede or compromize maximum lube flow thru the turbo - and trying to add increased lube flow thru that line MIGHT do that...

Perhaps. But if the turbo bearings are supplied with oil from the pump at 20 psi or more, and the return from the filter is much less than 20 psi, then flow through the turbo bearings should be almost unaffected.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Yeah - IF we can be sure of what restrictions exist in the turbo return line BELOW where we add increased flow from the bypass filter - to each his own, I prefer to NOT compromise existing return lines - plus, installing the return at the oil fill cap sure makes a dandy spot to take oil analysis samples...

 

[Ralph Wood]

The turbo oil return tube is big. Your could never dump enough oil into it to cause a back pressure problem. It's about 7/8" O. D. I had made up a saddle clamp for a 12 valve. I ended up using the Perma-Cool adapter on the 12 valve. The Perma-Cool adapter puts the clean oil back into the high pressure system similar to the Frantz dual P/R-A adapter. They are different in that the clean oil from the Motor Guard has to go thru the full flow filter to get to the engine parts. I have an Orthopedic Surgeon and a Mechanical Engineer that have turned my system into an Amsoil type dual remote system on a Dodge Cummins. I think sometimes people that are a lot smarter than I am get a little carried away

Anything you can do to lower the stress on the element the better it will clean oil. Don't confuse the 2 port Perma-Cool adapter or the dual P/R-A Frantz adapter with the one port Frantz adapter. The last I heard the dual P/R-A Frantz adapters were not available anymore. Motor guard has always had the best design. One guy ordered the orifice seperate so he could put it in the filter mount. I can see the logic in that. I have the dual remote ATF filter ready for the new Dodge. It should be good for at least 100,000 miles between changes. With some fluids it will never need changing.



Ralph