trailer braking

[NIsaacs]

One of the main reasons the older Kelsey-Hayes controllers received a bad rap was because most users did not attach the hydraulic line, instead they would rely on just hand operation, very useless in a panic stop. I still use two of them, however they are not very user friendly with an empty trailer. You can not turn the gain down enough. The newer style I am using in my two Dodges are electronic and work very well with an empty trailer. However since they also use gain adjustment, I feel since it is pre-adjusted, if the need for max braking was encountered it would not happen.



Does the Max Brake overcome this issue? If so, how does it do it and how does it determine loaded versus an empty trailer or if you are pulling a one axle or three axle?



Nick

 

[HBarlow]

A Prodigy brake controller requires pressing the service brake pedal in order to activate inertia braking so it would NOT come on in response to deceleration created by the exhaust brake unless the service brake pedal is pressed.

Which is why I stated if you touch your brake pedal. I am sure you have noticed you can touch your brake pedal just barely and activate the brake lights and brake controller and NOT get any braking.

You gain the ability to brake with the trailer and the EB and not the service brakes without having to manually run the trailer brakes.

I don't doubt its better in every aspect except where you want most of your braking to come from the EB and the trailer. If its not proportional you can't do that. [/QUOTE]

***************************************************************
That's a lot of meaningless gobblygook or, take your choice, baloney. If you only touch your brake pedal sufficient to activate brake lights you get no braking. You'll have to press the manual override enough to initiate trailer braking. That's not different than a BrakeSmart or MaxBrake.

If I'm floating down a long grade using the exhaust brake function to hold truck and trailer back and want to apply trailer brakes only it is very easy to reach over and gently press the red slider button on the side of my Brakesmart down to move the internal rheostat a little to add trailer braking to order, independent of my service brake pedal. The operating range of the rheostat makes it easy to manually apply trailer brakes very gently or to lock all four if slammed to the bottom of it's travel.

 

[HBarlow]

One of the main reasons the older Kelsey-Hayes controllers received a bad rap was because most users did not attach the hydraulic line, instead they would rely on just hand operation, very useless in a panic stop. I still use two of them, however they are not very user friendly with an empty trailer. You can not turn the gain down enough. The newer style I am using in my two Dodges are electronic and work very well with an empty trailer. However since they also use gain adjustment, I feel since it is pre-adjusted, if the need for max braking was encountered it would not happen.

Does the Max Brake overcome this issue? If so, how does it do it and how does it determine loaded versus an empty trailer or if you are pulling a one axle or three axle?

Nick

Nick, a great question to illustrate the magic of the pressure sensing controllers. I should state that I have never used a MaxBrake but assume it works identical to my BrakeSmart.

If you are running empty or pulling a light trailer you will apply less pressure on your service brake pedal and get greater stopping power than when pulling a heavy load. You the driver compensate for the lighter load with your right foot. It works as if the trailer knows what you want.

 

[HBarlow]

One of the main reasons the older Kelsey-Hayes controllers received a bad rap was because most users did not attach the hydraulic line, instead they would rely on just hand operation, very useless in a panic stop. I still use two of them, however they are not very user friendly with an empty trailer. You can not turn the gain down enough. The newer style I am using in my two Dodges are electronic and work very well with an empty trailer. However since they also use gain adjustment, I feel since it is pre-adjusted, if the need for max braking was encountered it would not happen. Nick

Nick, I assume you know that you adjust the brake controller gain on an old Kelsey Hayes controller by rotating the round knob on the manual control lever? If that won't reduce braking sufficient to provide what you need, you'll have to install an adjustable inline wire resistor.

I've got two of them on a shelf out in my barn, both brand new IIRC. They are the original old K-H brake control resistors. It is a man-made 1/4" thick "bakelight" or similar insulating product used as a mounting base with a stainless steel wire like an old screen door spring stretched from one end to the other on one set of posts then crossed over to another pair of posts and runs back to the start end. A metal clamp with a thumbscrew can be slid back and forth to effectively short out and eliminate part of the wire thereby reducing some of the resistance to adjust the voltage drop to your trailer brakes. They worked great long ago when some towed very light old Airstream trailers.

I'll give you one or even both of them if you need them to use old K-H controllers but I really don't want to fool with boxing and shipping. Do you ever haul in the area around Lubbock?

 

[NIsaacs]

Thanks Harvey, I am starting to get the idea of the Brake-Smart. However I still don't understand how it understands the difference between trucks or trailers. For example, your bigger C&C truck will stop better with X amount of pedal effort then my 2500 Dodge. How does it "know" this? How does it understand that I don't want to lock up my empty trailer, yet stop hard and fast if necessary? How or if it does understand, that a warm/hot trailer brake needs more "gain" then a cold trailer brake?



I guess I am just going to have to buy one to fully understand why they are so much better



Nick

 

[HBarlow]

Nick,

Your foot on the pedal and the subconscious actions of an experienced driver compensate. In other words, your brain does it without you even realizing it.

Think of it this way: You know that if your seven pin female from the trailer is not seated properly and trailer braking is weak and your trailer is heavily loaded you are, without giving it much thought going to push the brake pedal much harder to stop the combined load than if you were running empty. You also know that if the seven pin female suddenly makes contact and applies trailer braking you'll feel it and your subconscious brain will tell you to ease up on the brake pedal. Your brain is compensating.

It works the same way with a BrakeSmart or MaxBrake. Your brain just calls for the amount of combined truck and trailer braking you need to slow or stop. More foot pressure means more truck and trailer braking, less pressure eases off the rate of deceleration. The difference when compared to an inertial controller is you have precise and instantaneous control of trailer braking through your right foot, exactly as you do with the truck. No delays, no slow, late, or non-response, just precisely modulated dependable trailer braking matching your truck braking everytime you use the service brakes.

I give you my solemn promise that is you spend the money and install a MaxBrake or BrakeSmart if you can find one you'll be back praising the qualities and performance of your new brake controller. If you buy a BrakeSmart and don't like it I'll buy it from you for what you paid for it! How's that for confidence?

 

[AH64ID]

That's a lot of meaningless gobblygook or, take your choice, baloney. If you only touch your brake pedal sufficient to activate brake lights you get no braking. You'll have to press the manual override enough to initiate trailer braking. That's not different than a BrakeSmart or MaxBrake.



If I'm floating down a long grade using the exhaust brake function to hold truck and trailer back and want to apply trailer brakes only it is very easy to reach over and gently press the red slider button on the side of my Brakesmart down to move the internal rheostat a little to add trailer braking to order, independent of my service brake pedal. The operating range of the rheostat makes it easy to manually apply trailer brakes very gently or to lock all four if slammed to the bottom of it's travel.

As usual your letting your own opinion cloud facts. Its VERY clear you have never tried what I am describing or you wouldn't be making false statements. If you actually understood how an inertial brake controller worked again you wouldn't be making those statements. . so here goes.



When you apply your service brakes they send a signal to the trailer brake controller that you are braking, not how much you are braking just that you are braking, so the signal to the controller is the same at 0. 1% or 100% braking. The inertial controller then uses its own inertial sensor to brake the trailer proportionately to the rate of deceleration of the truck. . so if your decelerating from the exhaust brake and touch the brake pedal to activate the trailer brake controller it will sense the deceleration rate and apply trailer brakes to match the rate of deceleration form the exhaust brake without having to either apply the service brakes or grab the manual control lever on the controller so you can focus your attention on driving and not manually braking.



So how do I know that your just randomly bashing something of which you very obviously have no clue? Because my brake controller has a digital readout of the voltage being applied to the trailer brakes, and guess what you can watch it brake harder with the exhaust brake.

If you are running empty or pulling a light trailer you will apply less pressure on your service brake pedal and get greater stopping power than when pulling a heavy load. You the driver compensate for the lighter load with your right foot. It works as if the trailer knows what you want.

That's all fine and dandy until you have to make an emergency stop and lock up the trailer brakes from a full service brake application. But let me guess you have never had to make an emergency stop with a trailer? (This is where you tell some anecdote about how your vast experience has taught you how to predict the unpredictable. )





I have no doubt that the Brake Smart and Max Brake are great controllers, and if I didn't have an exhaust brake I would probably consider one. But for the exhaust brake application I do not see them being superior. They are great for mimicking the braking force of the truck, but that's not what you want with an exhaust brake, you want to mimic the deceleration force. When I first heard about them I did a great deal of research, and I don't think that a good proportional (Inertial) brake controller can be beat for use with an exhaust brake.

 

[HBarlow]

Blah, blah, blah.

I was pulling heavy trailers with one of the junk Tekonsha Voyager inertial controllers 20 years ago. I KNOW very well how they work and reject them as junk. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again. I probably pulled a heavy trailer more on my recent vacation trip with wife and dogs than you've ever pulled one.

You're like a high school air cadet standing around on a military airbase explaining to the fighter pilots how an afterburner works.

Continue using your inertia controller if you wish, it's your money and your choice. Most of us have tried and rejected it, and know better.

 

[jelag]

Harvey... .

I too, used to pull a trailer at 22K lbs of trailer weight... I agree 100% with you, but I'm sort of dismayed sometimes as to how hard you try to drive the nail in the coffin of some of these other guys... . I agree, they really have no clue and often take as gospel what the manufacturer says about the product...

But at times you sometimes get guys festered up... . so they ignore you... because of the way you said it, and how hard you've said it... I've learned your knowledgeable and have a uncanny way sometimes of putting your thoughts into words... like in the 20th post to this thread... . its truly the ability of your mind to relay to your foot what your seeing and how hard you press the pedal... .

So I'm willing to agree on what you said... but disagree on just how you said it... .

BTW - the auto transmission in the 6. 7 in the 5500's with the exhaust brake engaged and the transmission locked in tow/haul would handle the 19. 5K lbs of the truck and a 12K lb trailer down a 6% grade with no problem... we never got around to towing anything heavier... . so can't speak for more than that... .

 

[HBarlow]

Jim,

I'm glad you agree with what I wrote.

I'm not running for president of the junior class or seeking political office. I say it as I see it. Some don't like what I write but others do. I often receive pms from members asking me information or advice, once in awhile even one who publicly disliked a post I wrote. It is usually the biggest blowhards who know the least that don't like what I write. That's okay with me. I don't mind if some don't like me or what I write. They're entitled to their views.

 

[Robin]

Wow!! I didn't mean to start a firestorm when I posted my comments about the Jordan Ultimate controller.



Nevertheless, except for the Jordan I am not aware of a controller now or ever on the market that is or was adjustable to cause the trailer brakes to apply before the tow vehicle brakes come on. For that matter the Jordan can be adjusted to cause the trailer brakes to come on at the same time or after the tow vehicle brakes come on, although I can't imagine why delayed braking would be wanted. Any semi-truck driver (and I have a CDL good for doubles and triples) will tell you is is better to have the trailer(s) keep the slack out which will help keep the rig in a straight line.



Furthermore the rate of application can be adjusted with the Jordan.



I hope Camco decides to bring back the Jordan.



Something else about all inertial controllers. With a correctly adjusted inertial controller the trailer will always be pushing on the tow vehicle which is contrary to best practice. Also at very slow speeds on a steep grade the inertial element may not react well requiring manual application.



At one time or another I've used nearly every controller. Jordan rules.



Now, some discussion about electric brakes. My fifth wheel is a heavy 39 foot 1989 Newmar London Aire with a slide. It is a triaxle and had six 12X2 inch brakes. They were never as effective as I desired on the mountain grades of West Virginia. There was some discussion in this thread about having the trailer brakes applied continuously on a grade. Not only does the friction material itself lose some effectivleness with heat but the magnets tend to not grip as well when heated. So I feel it is not the best practice to drag electric brakes for a long time. With any brakes, I prefer making a heavier-than-necessary application, then a period of no braking.



Although our trailer is over 20 years old I installed Kodiak 13 inch hydraulic disc brakes. I love 'em. The Jordan works perfectly, although the Brakerite electric/hydraulic pump draws very little current. I biased the controller by paralleling it with a heavy resister to simulate brake magnets. This allowed the Jordan to recognize that it was connected to a brake circuit.



Bob

 

[AClayton]

Wow!! I didn't mean to start a firestorm when I posted my comments about the Jordan Ultimate controller.



Nevertheless, except for the Jordan I am not aware of a controller now or ever on the market that is or was adjustable to cause the trailer brakes to apply before the tow vehicle brakes come on. For that matter the Jordan can be adjusted to cause the trailer brakes to come on at the same time or after the tow vehicle brakes come on, although I can't imagine why delayed braking would be wanted. Any semi-truck driver (and I have a CDL good for doubles and triples) will tell you is is better to have the trailer(s) keep the slack out which will help keep the rig in a straight line.



Furthermore the rate of application can be adjusted with the Jordan.



I hope Camco decides to bring back the Jordan.



Something else about all inertial controllers. With a correctly adjusted inertial controller the trailer will always be pushing on the tow vehicle which is contrary to best practice. Also at very slow speeds on a steep grade the inertial element may not react well requiring manual application.



At one time or another I've used nearly every controller. Jordan rules.



Now, some discussion about electric brakes. My fifth wheel is a heavy 39 foot 1989 Newmar London Aire with a slide. It is a triaxle and had six 12X2 inch brakes. They were never as effective as I desired on the mountain grades of West Virginia. There was some discussion in this thread about having the trailer brakes applied continuously on a grade. Not only does the friction material itself lose some effectivleness with heat but the magnets tend to not grip as well when heated. So I feel it is not the best practice to drag electric brakes for a long time. With any brakes, I prefer making a heavier-than-necessary application, then a period of no braking.



Although our trailer is over 20 years old I installed Kodiak 13 inch hydraulic disc brakes. I love 'em. The Jordan works perfectly, although the Brakerite electric/hydraulic pump draws very little current. I biased the controller by paralleling it with a heavy resister to simulate brake magnets. This allowed the Jordan to recognize that it was connected to a brake circuit.



Bob

Bob,



Do you have an EB installed on your truck? If not, that would be a huge benefit to controlling your trailer in the mountains. I know exactly what you mean about towing heavy in the hills... ... ... my toyhauler is 40' long and without the EB, it would be challenging.



Alan

 

[HBarlow]

Bob,

No need to apologize, you are not responsible for the "differences of opinion" that often result. You simply posted details and opinions about your choice of controller.

The BrakeSmart controller has several settings that can easily be programmed from the keyboard including gain, rate of gain, and (I've forgotten what it is called) a voltage setting which provides a minimum trailer braking level that begins as soon as any hydraulic pressure is created by the service brakes.

 

[NIsaacs]

Harvey, yes I am aware of the gain adjustment on the old style K/H controller, I use a tiny bungee cord on the control handle to give the unit some resistance on light braking, they work fine loaded. I also was not aware of using an inline resistor. I did not know about that but it makes perfect sense. Thank you for the offer, if I get out that way I will be sure and let you know. I would like to try that. The old K/H work so well loaded I hate to change it out if it ain't broke



I am also impressed with your offer on the MaxBrake, they must be "that good". When I retire from my day job in the near future I will probably buy a good used camp trailer for following the warm/cool weather. If and when I do I will probably get one. I will be sure and let you know how well it performs.



Nick

 

[Robin]

Alan, thanks for asking. Yes, I have a BD EB on the truck. I am very happy with it compared to the previous ones. The truck has 60 lb valve springs. I have a pressure gauge in the cab and get 60 lbs pressure way down in the RPM range. When I bought the truck in 1997 I immediately installed a U. S. Gear 3 1/2 inch, later a 4 inch. later yet another brand. None worked great. BD big improvement.



I know this will cause comments about overloading trucks, but the last time I weighed the combination it was 23000.



Bob

 

[AClayton]

Yeah. . I've gotten them also but my combo at its heaviest is only a few lbs shy of your rig. The overweight guys are right and are only on here for our best interests... ... . I don't take any of the warnings for granted and always try to be as safe as possible. I have the BD brake also and use mine all the way down to 20mph with my lock-up controller.



Alan

 

[AH64ID]

Blah, blah, blah.



I was pulling heavy trailers with one of the junk Tekonsha Voyager inertial controllers 20 years ago. I KNOW very well how they work and reject them as junk. Been there, done that, don't want to do it again. I probably pulled a heavy trailer more on my recent vacation trip with wife and dogs than you've ever pulled one.



You're like a high school air cadet standing around on a military airbase explaining to the fighter pilots how an afterburner works.



Continue using your inertia controller if you wish, it's your money and your choice. Most of us have tried and rejected it, and know better.

Wow, 20 years ago huh. . I guess technology hasn't changed in 20 years... I can't understand why you wouldn't want a controller that brakes in conjunction with your exhaust brake. Everyone has stated how well an exhaust brake works with heavy loads, so why stop there. It has also been acknowledged that you want the trailer braking harder than the truck so that it keeps it behind the truck on hard decelerations. If you set up a Max Brake so that the braking is perfect with the exhaust brake off, then run the exhaust brake the truck will decelerate harder than your settings are for, thus the trailer doesn't "pull" the truck to a stop, or vice-versa if you setup the max brake with the EB on and then turn it off. This is not the case on an inertial driven brake, the trailer will get more braking power when the exhaust brake is used, which is optimal.



Provide some MODERN data and maybe people won't snuff you off. . Really if all you want to do is embarrass yourself with comments like "blah blah blah" then be my guest. It doesn't effect me, I just get to sit back and watch you date your self with things that were true 20 years ago. .



This isn't the first time we have disagreed on a modern concept. I really suggest if you want to keep up with the times then you educate yourself on how things work in modern times. Technology has come a long ways, either adapt or don't preach. I always ensure I have done my research or had first hand experience with an issue before I comment; I only wish that you could say the same, but from your comments and attitude its beyond obvious that its not the case.



I do realize you are trying to help, but your so full of what you perceive as fact that you quite often put out incorrect data, its not uncommon for your posts to have to be corrected (Without searching I can think of several threads in recent weeks where you have put out false facts and had to be corrected). You should continue to be a wealth of knowledge, but you really need to do a better job of ensuring the facts you type, your errors and the way in which you talk makes you lose the credibility you once had.



I challenge you to do some research and reading and attempt to keep up with the modern technology.