Trailer Life ATS article

[pwr2tow]

Before the Moderators shut this one down, I sincerely hope they do not because maybe once and for all we can get this over with, I want to point out something.



Seems the DTT guys, well actually it's only about 10 or so of them that seem to say the other transmission guys are always picking on them, lets look at this situation.



BD can talk to ATS guys without arguements.

ATS can talk to BD guys without arguements.

BD can talk to Suncoast guys without arguements.

ATS can talk to Suncoast guys without arguements.

Suncoast guys can talk to ATS and BD guys without arguements.

BD, ATS, Suncoast, can talk to Georend Br. guys without arguements.



Any time ATS, Suncoast, BD, Georend Br. come on the board and make a statement or inform the TDR of a product DTT guys are there to talk down, bash, insult, heckle, disrupt the thread in any manor they can and in turn the company guys have started doing the same, (like they say what goes around, eventually comes around).



Like stated in the third paragraph we all talk amongst ourselfs on the TDR without incidence until DTT shows up.



When I first joined the TDR back in February of 2000, three years ago there were many, many vendors and sponsors on this board to give and help. When DTT showed up and started their pack hunt one by one the other vendors left and figured it wasn't worth their efforts or trouble to sit on the TDR anymore and have to argue with another company, they figured it was worse for their business to sit and argue than to just leave. Man, have we lost alot of valuable information from these other companies. You could check and see if what I am saying is the truth by doing a search under the companies names, the sad thing is when the threads got moved everything went under archives so it will take a long time to find them but please do.



Ron

 

[Jetpilot]

Edward,



Funny how you make an issue about people being sponsored or having a business interest in one company and that is sways their posts. Then turn right around and talk about double standards and the Earthroamer article. Which way do you want it..... ? Is everybody to always disclose if they are sponsored, got something at a reduced cost, do installations, etc. So that folks can discredit their posts?



ronsram1999



I guess I don't see what your issue is. You make accusations tower's me and then get upset at Snowman because he basically says the same thing. Also you never answered my question on income.





Guys there is no battle from me. Actually all I said was "nobody I am aware of at DTT said that you had to remedy anything right away or that your transmission is doomed to failure". Next thing I know both of you are trying to discredit me for posting. So who is "stirring the pot folks"? I have never said anything negative towards any of the other vendors. I do say positive things about the products I use if they work well. We have been down the sponsorship issue several times. All of the guys I know that are sponsored really are doing R&D for the companies. Jim Fuller is helping BD, Eric Mcbride was helping ATS, others are helping Suncoast, etc. This only helps the consumer get a better product. As far as marketing tactics, all companies use them. This does not mean it is a scare tactic..... Some companies use multiple disc converters and tell you single disc's will not hold. Others talk about the inherent problems of turning up line pressure. Some tell you about internal leaks. Is these scare tactics or just informing the customer what they feel makes their product the best?



Bottom line. Do the research, drive trucks equipped with different trannies, call the vendors, then make your choice. Everybody needs to purchase what is right for them. As long as the purchaser is happy with his product that is really all that matters.



Doug

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by Jetpilot

Edward,

Funny how you make an issue about people being sponsored or having a business interest in one company and that is sways their posts. Then turn right around and talk about double standards and the Earthroamer article. Which way do you want it..... ? Is everybody to always disclose if they are sponsored, got something at a reduced cost, do installations, etc. So that folks can discredit their posts?

Jetpilot just to be sure I went back and checked Snomans post and it does not state in his signature or any place else that he sells and installs transmissions. As for which way I want it. I believe I made that clear in my post to Snowman. ( see quote below)

Snowman

With all due respect I think the issue you have touched on is disclosure. If Bill from Earthroamer did get this product for free or at a reduced rate he should have disclosed it………. .

Jetpilot I see two ways to approach the disclosure issue. One is for anyone with a business interest or sponsorship to freely and openly make it public. This allows everyone who reads the posts of the person who is affiliated to decide if the post is nest feathering or providing information in an effort to help others. The second way requires the affiliated person to try to keep his/her associations private. The bad part about this way is it creates doubt in people’s minds because it leaves the impression that there is something to hide. The disclosure that will surely come of that affiliation creates many problems. One of which is credibility. It is one thing for a satisfied customer to praise a product and quite another for someone who has business interests to promote their own financial gain. The other problem with the second way is that when the affiliation is made public the person being disclosed has no control over it. If a person freely and openly states their interests they are in control of the disclosure. They get to frame it in context. Personally if information about me is being disclosed I prefer to do it because I get to set the tone and context.



Edward

 

[pwr2tow]

Originally posted by Jetpilot



ronsram1999

Also you never answered my question on income.

Doug

Jetpilot,

Being the professional you are I believe you know full well what I'am talking about. You are sponsored and I believe you gain some capitol gain from amateur racing or sled pulling. If you don't I apologize. If you never race, sled pull, or never gain anything from sponsorship then please explain the sponsorship so we can all understand why you would not have any interest in who purchased what product. Take me for an example, I am not sponsored or make any gains what so ever from the products I use, when I make a product suggestion it's purely that a suggestion, I will also inform people of products similar to the ones' I use from other companies, I don't see that happening from you or the handful of the pack. All we ever hear from you guys is DTT is the best, do it right the first time, there is no other choice, That's a good one since most of you guys have never even used someone else's product.



Personally I think you guys are trying to steer this topic in another direction like you guys always do and then when that avenue runs dry you guys steer it in another, and then another, and then another... ... no wonder the readers have a hard time believing what you guys say.



Ron

 

[Jetpilot]

ronsram1999



I can see you have never raced or sled pulled. This is not a jab just an observation from what you said about capital gain. I know of nobody racing the diesel trucks that has made money. Some have walked away from an event with a win that might net them $200 or so but then if you subtract the costs incured to participate then one is well on the negative side.



What I gain from my sponsorships is the ability to go faster and try new things that may or may not work. The sponsorships have also introduced me to a bunch of wonderful folks that I would not have had the opportunity to meet. Examples would be people from BD, ATS, Garmons Diesel Performance, Piers, DTT, and others.



I get no pressure from my sponsors to promote their products. All they have ask of me is to let the truck do the talking. I do have my own personal opinions of what I think is best and why. I feel that I should be able to voice those opinions just as you or anyone else. You also stated that you don't see me say positive statements on others products..... Well I only make statements on products I have personally used. But, I think that when I tell others to check out all the vendors and buy what is right for them then I am not just promoting one brand.



As for steering the conversation, well my only comment was about what you said and scare tactics! You though turned it away from that area..... So who is changing the directions Ron?



Guys everyone has their favorites. We all made decisions to purchase one product over another for certain reasons and usually feel that what we got is/was superior to another brand. This is the reason we choose what we do.



Doug

 

[Jetpilot]

Edward,



I see what you are saying. So I also guess that means you are in agreement with Snowman about Earthroamer and ATS if in fact there was any sponsorship, discount, etc. on the transmission.



Doug

 

[CMNS PWR]

Bout time I threw in my $0. 02.

Who gives a flying rats rectum if these guys are sponsored? In the end, their research benefits us all, does it not? Who cares if the sponsored person(s) touts their products, we all benefit, do we not? Seems like the bickering and moaning is over $3-4k and more. This is chump change compared to the amount we have invested in our trucks. Lets all be thankful that we can even afford to have the truck, let alone to upgrade it.

Doug puts it best, "I get no pressure from my sponsors to promote their products. All they have ask of me is to let the truck do the talking. "

 

[illflem]

The only thing that bothers me about sponsored products is that you have to wonder if the person did any research into the product or just went for the first one that was free. I think most of us who would spend $3k on a transmission will research it pretty darn well ourselves before buying and take much of the advice here with a grain of salt.

 

[Snow man]

illflem, you made my point exactly.

 

[Strick-9]

illflem,



I feel the same way. I researched products heavily before I made my decision. I paid full retail for my VB as soon as DTT released them almost three years ago. I patiently waited for the TC's to come out and then paid full retail for that as well.



Some time after that, DTT chose to use my truck as a test bed. I know that JetPilot paid for his products as well long before Bill decided to sponsor him.



On the other hand, I know of a few sponsored trucks (no names) that actually called the various vendors asking for a free transmission. The first one to say yes was the one they went with. When those guys brag about products, I have a hard time believing them.



So even though I'm including myself in this statement. I would have to warn everybody to be slightly skeptical of sponsored trucks. At the same time, understand that not everyone asked to be sponsored. I've had more than one vendor ask me to test products for them. Unfortunately, that makes my opinion useless to certain individuals on the TDR.



Be skeptical of everyone. I've met some people that spent a great deal of money on certain parts which performed terribly. Yet those customers would fight to the death about how great those products were because they had to justify in their own mind why they spent so much money. You can't classify people and say that all customers are honest and sponsored trucks are all liars. There's good and bad apples in all walks of life.



I think the most important factor is for each person to buy products that they believe in. Call everyone, talk to sponsored trucks, talk to customers, take test drives, attend dyno events, just get involved and have a good time. That's how we all met in the first place.



-Chris

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by Jetpilot

Edward,



I see what you are saying. So I also guess that means you are in agreement with Snowman about Earthroamer and ATS if in fact there was any sponsorship, discount, etc. on the transmission.



Doug

Jetpilot

I would like to think we are close to agreement. The affiliation not disclosed is of the person who asked the question about Eatrtroamer. What was his motivation in asking the question? Could there be any potential for financial gain in creating doubt about the motivation of the author? How do we decide? I have been hoping the person in question would himself disclose his business affiliations but that has not happened yet. If you really see what I am saying you would have to agree that if disclosure is proper for one it should also be proper for the other.



Edward

 

[Edward]

Originally posted by illflem

The only thing that bothers me about sponsored products is that you have to wonder if the person did any research into the product or just went for the first one that was free. I think most of us who would spend $3k on a transmission will research it pretty darn well ourselves before buying and take much of the advice here with a grain of salt.

Illflem

The motivation for a rebuilder or installer is the same as a sponsored person. All have the motivation of financial gain. The installer or rebuilder stands to make money and the sponsored person stands to save money. Either way it's financial gain. If a person installs for a company and promotes that company in the forums you have to wonder does he really like the product or does he really like making money from the product? If these people would freely disclose their affiliations then we the consumers will get to make a truly informed decision about the information that is given to us. I know of one vendor who has helped me with quite a few things. He disclosed his business association from the start so I had no questions about any of his motivations. He has not once made an attempt to sell me on anything. He has at every opportunity tried to help me. When I was stuck and had a question he got me the answer. As of yet I have not purchased a thing from him but when I need something and he sells it I give you one guess where I am going. (If anyone wants to know who he is send me a PM) To me this is why I am a member of the TDR. This is the type of experience I would like to see all of us have with the vendors their associates and the persons they sponsor. It is so simple and all they need to do is be straight up honest, tell people who they are with and what they do. Then they should help others like they would like to be helped.



PS For a vendor or any of their associates rule number one should be, under no circumstance should they ever in any way imply or talk junk about their competition.



Edward

 

[thekidfan]

What the heck

It's already rolling so I may as well. Am I the only one that remembers Earthromer's first transmission upgrade? Why haven't you guys brought that up? Answers to follow.

 

[pwr2tow]

Thekidfan,

If I remember correctly earthroamers first upgrade was a BD upgrade and it was done before DTT or ATS was established.



At least this is as far back as I go with his history there could have been other upgrades that I am not aware of.



Ron

 

[BigUgly]

I personally, have to wonder about a fully sponsored individual. Not if they are sponsored by company XYZ and stick to XYZ, if that's the case, I can almost see how they could talk about how the XYZ product is the best, they've stuck with it. Now, if the SI (Sponsored Individual) proceeds to ditch XYZ for ZYX and goes through two other product classes with at least two companies, then I have to wonder. Now, I know that's kinda con-fluted, so here's my attempt to make sure all know what I mean.....

If someone, oh let's say EarthRoamer, got a suspension lift from company #1 and said it was the best thing since sliced bread, then a year or two later gets a competing lift from company #2 and shouts it to the heavens, all the while never mentioning that he was taking off lift #1 to replace it with the same style and height lift #2. Another example, lets say, oh EarthRoamer again, gets a big ol' deer-strainer front bumper from company #3 and praises it mightily, then, a few years later gets another deer-strainer from company #4 and calls it great, all the while never mentioning that a good deer-strainer from #3 is just out side the photo in the garage.

That sort of thing causes red-flags to go up in my mind. It causes me to wonder if the SI is interested on having the best products or in having the best sponsors.

Now, if a SI, lets say JetPilot here, has a DTT sponsorship and uses a DTT transmission (duh), I have no trouble with that, even if he praises the DTT transmission, but if as soon as JetPilot's sponsorship by DTT is up, he turns around and gets sponsored by ATS and starts hyping the ATS to the skys, then, I have concerns.

Now, am I "Sponsored"? I think not really. Yes I do have a full DTT transmission in the truck, but I payed for it, I didn't pay list price because I already had a DTT TC and VB to return as cores and they gave a bigger core worth for them. Did I still pay alot for it? Yup!, you want to see the checkbook? I'm also sorta-sponsored by Garmon's Diesel Performance, he let me have "350HP Dyno Proven" stickers for free, and they were the first silvered stickers . Although, I suppose it could be argued that I'm giving him free advertising, so it's probably all evened out.

Would I like to be sponsored by a product line willing to give me free products and/or cash? Friggin A! Just drop me a line, that's BigUgly Racing at -- email address removed -- .

Josiah

 

[thekidfan]

Big Ugly, I do believe you dun hit that there nail right square on the noodle.



Ron, you also got but I may add the it was also said that the previous upgrade had been installed wrong.



To me the biggest thing would be stick with someone you trust (dealer wise) as has been said many times any of these t/c transmission upgrades are tons better then stock. But it's the customer service AFTER the sale that really counts. Anyway good luck to all trying to decide.

 

[pwr2tow]

BigUgly,

Have to disagree on that one, if xyz was the best thing since sliced bread and the next year yzx is better, alot of things can happen in one year to make the yzx better, take the transmission debate we are in. The aftermarket transmission parts of 2003 are extremely far better than the aftermarket transmisson parts of 1999 so wouldn't a person want to say that, or should they just stick with their pride of a product they used in 1999 and keep promoting it even if it is ancient technology. Every one likes a change once in awhile and if your going to change why not companies also and give someone else a chance?



I have always stated that my BD transmission works perfect, I love the way it handles the load I tow, and sure I had one small clitch that was taken care of under warranty. This dosesn't mean that in the future if and when this transmission gives up that I won't change to another brand, granted it would be hard since this is aready a proven setup to me but everyone likes a change now and then.



Ron

 

[Edward]

Remember that vendor I was telling you about? The one who was interested in helping me? The one who thought it important to help even though he knew he wasn't going to make a dime. One of the things I like most about him and his company is that there is no pack of his customers constantly scanning the threads trying to hype his products. He believes the products he sells and the service he provides will speak louder than any pack. And he doesn't believe for a moment that running his competitors products down will make the products he sells any better either.



Edward



PS He doesn't do transmissions either.

 

[rrausch]

I'm starting to feel like as an ATS supporter I don't have Freedom of Speech on this site anymore. EVERY single ATS thread lately has been hijacked by the DTT crowd. This thread is a perfect example. It starts out, people wanting to talk about the Trailer Life Article about the ATS TripleLok, a good atricle, written by Earthroamer. Before the first page is even full, here comes the DTT crowd trying to take the thread over. You would think they are afraid of the ATS message getting out! It seems like they just don't want people talking about ATS and how great it is! Moderators, why do you allow this?

 

[BigUgly]

Ron;

I will agree that this is an interesting possibilty and does have some merit. Okay, forget the trannys... (I know, hard to do, right?) What about the suspension lifts that HAVEN'T changed in the time between the first lift and the second one? Ditto on the bumpers. I'd sure like to be able to afford to swap expensive front bumpers every few years, especially when nothing's wrong with the first one. Ditto on Lifts.



Now, for anyone else out there.

I have nothing against ATS. I've never bought anything from them. I've never riden in any truck with an ATS transmission. I GOT NUTHIN' AGAINST ATS!! Now that that's finished... .



Rrausch;

I also don't like the way some will automaticly step into a post to "argue" against a product or company, but it's ALOT better than the alternative. Should Steve not allow anyone with a DTT trans to post in any ATS-related thread? That's even more restrictive of Freedom of Speech than what you have to deal with.



Edward;

Sounds like you've got a good vendor there. Would you mind posting who it is, or atleast PM me with who it is. It's always good to find good vendors and I like to patron them.



Josiah