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Transmission Temperature

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Need some opnions on how to lower egt a little

Crank but no start

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Finally got around to installing the Mass Diesel line and sensor in for my isspro gauge. I did it in Borrego Palm Canyon Campground (east of San Diego) before hauling my 10K fver up S22 (12% grade). Anyway, the needle read 220 at its highest reading. At what point do you burn your fluid, and at what point do you need to pull over and let her cool down? I think 220 is getting close to the danger zone. The idiot light has never shown its ugly display.

BYW, when I put the Mass Diesel line in I probably lost 2/3 of a quart of ATF-4. Not as bad as I thought.

Thanks. . John
 
220 is a 15k service for sure ,also I would never install a inline sensor on a transmission line. it may cause a restriction regardless of position
 
TWest,Glad to hear someone chime up on the sensor being in the cooler line. I went back and forth on where to mount my sensor and am glad I kept it at the transmission pan.
 
Mass diesel cooler line

I installed that Mass diesel cooler line on Fschmidt's truck and the AN tee fitting they use keeps the sender out of the flow path pretty well in my opinion. The hole through the fitting with the sender installed is just as big as the line diameter. The fitting is made of aluminum if memory serves so I don't think you will see much temperature variance from what the fluid is.



Wardog what was ambient temperature when you saw that 220 F? :eek: What gear were you in and how fast were you pulling? Were you in lockup? That temperature is very high in my opinion. Most report that temperature is less that 180 pulling. Unless you are in stop and go traffic and/or unlocked pulling up a large long hill and/or backing your trailer up a hill the stock cooler seems to be adequate to maintain temperature. In OD lock up there is very little heat generated in the transmission. Ken Irwin
 
Ambient temperature was about 87 degrees. It was a very steep 12% grade. Guess I'm not real clear about what lock-up is/means. I had it in tow haul and let it find the gear it needed. I have found that sometimes it doesn't downshift like I think it should when I'm pulling a grade. Sometimes I have to take my foot off the throttle and reapply it to get it to kick down.

After the grade the temp. went way down and stayed down (about 120).

Can you help me with the lock up concept?

Thanks
 
Torque converter lock up

Wardog, Your truck has 4 forward gears. It seems to the seat of the that there are actually 5 shifts (considering that you start out in first) The last "shift" is actually the torque converter going into lock up which directly connects the engine crank shaft to the main shaft in the transmission. Depending on model year this occurs under different conditions. As I understand it some of the latest trucks can achieve torque converter lock up in 3rd (or direct) also. After the computer sees that these conditions are met, the torque converter clutch engages making contact with a friction plate inside the torque converter not much unlike a manual transmission clutch assembly. At this point fluid shear in the torque converter drops to zero and the fluid heating associated with this shear ceases. Crankshaft speed=transmission main shaft speed which is then further increased by the OD unit on the back of the transmission such that the drive shaft turns 1 turn for every . 69 engine revolution. To get back to the point, transmission temperature should only rise under conditions of torque converter slippage. When you are setting there idling at a red light slippage = 100% therefore the heat is being removed by the associated coolers and the engine coolant. If you are pulling hard and not in lock up the mighty Cummins is generating a lot of power and the slippage in the torque converter (although much less than 100%) is producing A LOT of heat. This heat has to be removed by the transmission cooling circuit. This should not occur IF the converter is locked as slippage is zero. If possible you want to keep the converter locked up while towing. slippage = heat and heat is bad. Cheers Ken Irwin
 
I'm really glade you posted your findings, many think they are safe with regard to transmission temperatures when in fact they are indeed at risk. The most accurate readings are those taken from the transmission cooler lines as it exits the transmission on it's way to the coolers (yes their are two). This is the area that will tell you what temperature the transmission is seeing. I have been researching transmission cooling temperatures, and the effects of additional cooling for almost two years in an effort to combat the problems associated with high load/high power use. The sender in the pan only shows the fluid temps after cooling, which is only half the picture, and very miss leading. Transmission fluid has a set life cycle, at 190 degrees with everything being normal, it should last for 75,000 miles. Unfortunately, transmission fluid is severely affected by temperature spikes, and most all users will not or should not allow so much time to pass before replacement. Transmission fluid has it's useful life cycle reduced by 1/2 for every 10 degrees the fluid goes over 190. That means if the fluid goes to 200 even once, the life cycle is shortened to 37,500 miles. Let it rise to 210 and it goes to 18,700, even worse let it get to 220 and that now drops to 9,375 miles. The problem most have, is they monitor the fluid temps after they have been cooled, which is sort of back wards. I have experimented with 2qt and 4qt transmission pans, extra coolers both front mounted and else ware, synthetic fluid and conventional. Fluid temperatures for our transmissions are very easy to manipulate, they as expected run their coolest at highway speeds, with the TC locked. Under these conditions, temperatures of 140-150 (pan) and 170-180 (line) are very common and very acceptable while both towing and hauling large loads. The problems start as we decrees the speed, city traffic, rush hour conditions, or anything that has us stopping and starting without longer periods of sustained speed. As expected, you will build temperature faster while towing or hauling heavy loads, but most seem to think they are OK while running empty, which is not the case. I did alot of testing with a 16,000Lb trailer, and as you would imagine temperatures are pretty easy to heat up with such a load. But surprisingly enough, they are also fairly easy to heat up while running with-out a load. Running stock coolers, temps over 250 (line) are far more common then most would imagine, while towing. It only takes about 3 miles of stop and go traffic on a 85-90 degree day to obtain. The absolute worst condition for high transmission temps are backing, here because of the design very high temperatures occur in a very short time span.

The use of over sized transmission pans is not a cure, they do hold more fluid which acts as a buffer between the extremes, but they do nothing to cool the fluid. Yes the fined aluminum pans look good and are an improvement over stock, but they did no better then the stock, thin steel pan. If anything they hurt, by giving the user a false sense of security. We need to understand that we expect an awe full lot out of our 40+ year old automotive automatic transmission. Looking on the insides (yes I took it apart) damage from heat is not only apparent, but the major component to failure. I found that heat was generated the most from the TC and the overdrive unit in normal conditions. The good news is with a few minor changes to the cooling system itself, and some driver education the heat can be controlled and or minimized. Frankly, I am amazed that this old slush box performs as well as it does, considering it's ancient design, the fact that it is a gasser trany put behind a diesel and rated to tow as much as it does, and how small most of the inside parts are.
 
TWest said:
220 is a 15k service for sure ,also I would never install a inline sensor on a transmission line. it may cause a restriction regardless of position



You obviously haven't seen MassDiesel Transmission line with the probe fitting. No obstruction at all and no way it could cause an obstruction.



In my conversations with Bill Kondolay of DTT (Diesel Transmissions Tech), he told me the maximum temp you should ever let your transmission get to is 240*. And if it gets that high to pull over and shut the engine off do not let it idle.
 
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BIG BOB said:
You obviously haven't seen MassDiesel Transmission line with the probe fitting. No obstruction at all and no way it could cause an obstruction.



In my conversations with Bill Kondolay of DTT (Diesel Transmissions Tech), he told me the maximum temp you should ever let your transmission get to is 240*. And if it gets that high to pull over and shut the engine off do not let it idle.



If Mass wants to sell/install the inline that up to them ,It"s their blood and skin left on those trans. T&C will not rebuild a vehicle equip with one or install them. Also the the 3Gens have a Fluid warmer/ cooler on the Driver side mounted on the engine, that"s why when coolant temp increases the fluid temp does also, You can install a Fan override switch to prevent this,To engage the fan manually. Yes the inline sensor is the most accurate temp.
 
Well how do YOU get the temperature?

TWest, I'm confused. :confused: So if you won't install an in line temperature sending unit and it is the most accurate temperature, how do you obtain the fluid temperature on an automatic transmission? Your statement doesn't make any sense from an engineering stand point. If the probe doesn't hinder fluid flow through the coolers, then why are you against it? Ken Irwin
 
Trans fluid temp/lock up

Thanks for the great info on trans fluid temps. On my 95 4x4 I have the "extra" 4 qt pan, but no gauge (yet). I use Red Line synthetic fluid, and change it every two years. I routinely tow a small tractor ( 5500 lb) and occasionally a 13,000 lb loaded dump trailer through out the county and small towns. I always take overdrive off. Is this infact locking my torque converter to minimize heat build up as I think ? Is there a module or other device available for locking up the converter at low gears - as when I first start out pulling? What is the best way to install a temp sender in the line to the cooler without restricting flow? I tend to keep things for a very long time, and my Cummins is one of those things. Once I get it the way I want- why trade it and start all over- just my personal thought. My 79 Dodge Lil Red Express, 93 Harley Electraglide and 87 F350 gas hog are testiment to that. I make em reliable and keep em.

Thanks For your great info.



___________________________

Just a simple truck
 
Thanks for the information about the TC. Really appreciate the time it takes for you guys to send such detailed and informative responses.



My next question is, how do I know when it's locked up? I think it's occurring when I run up through the gears and when 4th engages a short while later the rpm's drop back 4-5 hundred or so. Is this the lock up? Will it lock up in all the gears? That must be what happened when I was pulling that 12% grade and ran the temp up to 220. So how do I go about insuring lock up in that situation. As mentioned, there were times when I felt like I was lugging it (on the grade) and I couldn't get it into a lower gear with my right foot. I had to release the throttle and then hit it again to get a lower gear. All this with tow/haul engaged.



I guess I'll drop the pan and change the fluid just to be on the safe side (12K miles on the truck), although it doesn't smell burned.
 
I agree that measuring at the TC output will for sure give the highest readings but if you measure there you have to compare those readings with something to know if what you are seeing is bad.



One thing I have found is that most refer to fluid temperatures that the transmission is being subjected to rather than the temperatures of the fluid itself.

Fluid that is super heated by the TC is leaving the transmission so actual operating temperatures are much lower.

Take for example the chart and statements this manufacture makes. Reading it seems as though they are more concerned with what fluid temperatures the transmission is being subjected to.



If you measure at the output line and then go by their statements you may find your trans is constantly overheating. So all I am saying is where ever you measure, compare that to recommendations measured from there.
 
My next question is, how do I know when it's locked up?
Lift off the accelerator. If the RPM's don't drop, then your TC is locked. Or - tap the brakes with your left foot. If the RPM's jump up, your TC was locked.

a short while later the rpm's drop back 4-5 hundred or so. Is this the lock up?
That's it.
Will it lock up in all the gears?
Lockup will occur in 4th gear, or 3rd if O/D is locked out (this doesn't apply to newer vehicles with the tow/haul mode). It will also lock up in manual 2nd (ie. shift lever in the '2' position, instead of 'D').



-Tom
 
What about LOW operation temps?

I have probes in both the trans (test port) and output line. Obviously the line temp runs a little higher but while tooling around town and at highway speeds when not towing, the temp often does not exceed 100-120 degrees with ambient temps in the 70's.



Is there a problem with the fluids too cool. I also added a large fan to the front cooler to increase air flow and lower temps when in slow traffic.



Any opinions would be appreciated



Thanks :)
 
E2360 said:
Is there a problem with the fluids too cool.
DC did put a thermostat in the cooler line and it bypasses the air exchanger when temps are too cool.
I also added a large fan to the front cooler to increase air flow and lower temps when in slow traffic. Any opinions would be appreciated
Now that DC is using the electronic controlled vistronic fan I wanted to use the engine fan to do that function so I came up with a circuit to tell the ECM to engage the big fan.



With a flip of a toggle I can turn on the big vistronic fan for backing a trailer, slow traffic or slow off road use to aid trans cooling. I may move my trans sensor to the output line and use my SPA's external alarm to trigger a relay at whatever temp I choose and turn the fan on that way but the toggle is nice also to aid turbo cool down by moving more air over the intercooler when I want shut down after a long pull.



Its too bad DC didn't have the ECM look at trans temps via the thermistor in the pan but since they didn't I added my own switch.



The ECM must control the fan because it also monitors fan engagment and if it sees something it didn't command it will toss a code and trip the lamp.
 
Hey Matt400, small world. I was at my dealer today and was asking the tech about the same idea. I'm leaving next week for a trip in the mountains and I'd sure like to be able to tell my fan to kick on. Could you share the details of your circuit? I am seeing engine temps in the 215 range now and it's not even hot here yet. Thanx for your post.
 
Here is a copy of my MFO (Manual Fan Override) circuit I developed. The fan is PWM (Pulse Width Modulated) by the ECM and fan speed is also monitored which is why I did it this way for no engine codes.



This works on my 03 and I later found out that on an 04 you must use a different resister because DC decided to change the CTS (Coolant Temp Sensor) that reports a different voltage range to the ECM. I don’t recall the resistor to use on the 04 but remember it needed to have more resistance than the one for the 03’s possibly 700 or more ohms.



It’s pretty simple and basically what you need is a toggle that will change over the CTS signal to the resister circuit that is pulled to ground. The resister needs to be low enough in resistance to tell the ECM the coolant is 220 degrees and that is a 180 ohm resister for the 03’s. If you use one that allows the gauge to go too high you will set a fault code.



Don’t be alarmed when you see lower oil pressures with the MFO on because you have “told” the ECM the coolant temp is hot so it reports a lower oil pressure reading thinking the oil is thinner.



Another feature that surfaced is if you leave the MFO on for 8 minutes the ECM will automatically elevate the idle RPM's to 1000 so the fan will draw even more air over the coolers. In this mode the PWM circuit then begins to cycle the fan on-off-on etc. . This function only works in park and will disable as soon as you shift out of park.
 
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