triple lock TC

[Briar Hopper]

CUMINNTSTRKN, I suppose if I responded to your post in the same manner as you came across, then it would reflect poorly on us, and cause hard feelings. One could possibly interpret your post as a bash against ATS.

Since you are a BD customer, and sponsored advocate, let me point out to you that I have a good friend on the west coast that also runs a BD. He, too, is sponsored. No matter. I've never bashed him or his choice of trannies, nor for that matter, anybody else's choice. I do have a lot of respect for him and his abilites. Where many have lined up to buy their horsepower, he has developed his own, through trial and error, just as McBride and I have chosen to do. The "Valley Fuel Injection" logo sure does look good on his truck's rear window.

Looking forward to meeting you at Muncie, and seeing you on the track.

 

[BigYellowIron]

Easy Fellas!!! I can see some of you are getting red faced, just take a deep breath!



Adam

 

[Steve Roseman]

Yes, like Adam says, Take it easy.

As soon as these good discussions turn into a ******* match, the posts come so fast I can't keep up. Oo.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

Originally posted by Briar Hopper

CUMINNTSTRKN, I suppose if I responded to your post in the same manner as you came across, then it would reflect poorly on us, and cause hard feelings. One could possibly interpret your post as a bash against ATS.

Since you are a BD customer, and sponsored advocate, let me point out to you that I have a good friend on the west coast that also runs a BD. He, too, is sponsored. No matter. I've never bashed him or his choice of trannies, nor for that matter, anybody else's choice. I do have a lot of respect for him and his abilites. Where many have lined up to buy their horsepower, he has developed his own, through trial and error, just as McBride and I have chosen to do. The "Valley Fuel Injection" logo sure does look good on his truck's rear window.

Looking forward to meeting you at Muncie, and seeing you on the track.

brair



i have no hard feelings towards anyone. my ? to you as a ats installer was do you recommend shifting lock to lock? this is not a pi$$ing contest by any means.

this was not about friends it was a ? i asked you about lock to lock shifting. i know very little about these transmission's. but when some one keeps breaking parts becuase of lock to lock shifting and no one is telling the public about it, i think thats wrong.

as i've said before i don't think there is anything wrong with a ats transmission, but to compare our transmission to a allison is comical. as you have said there is a lot of drivetrain parts behind this transmission, and they suffer while shifting lock to lock also.



i too look forward to meeting you and others at muncie. i wish ats well, i just hope that they are honest with there customers when telling people about lock to lock shifting.



jim

 

[Briar Hopper]

Okay Jim, I see what you mean now. Actually, to understand about lock-to-lock shifting, you must keep in mind that in some transmission/torque convertor packages, shifting while locked is a bad idea.

It is the cleverly engineered features and strength of the TripleLok torque convertor from ATS, that permits shifting while locked. With a lesser torque convertor,like a stock or near stock convertor, or even some aftermarket units, it would not be possible for the transmission to survive very long operating the same way.

Whatever transmission brand it is, the higher it's efficiency in applying the power to the ground, and the higher the HP/torque in front of it, weak links other than the transmission will soon become apparent.

As for honesty, it's the only way I am. After you meet me, you'll understand. People trust me, and I go to great pains to keep it that way.

I do agree with you, however, that if breakage is occurring, the public should be told, and told WHY and HOW. I'm not familiar with the breakage situation you keep referring to.

I remind you of one of Eric McBride's first posts about the ATS transmission he is running in "Stack'd 'n' Jack'd"... . he has said that ATS is sponsoring him partly for the R&D, because of his extreme HP. Eric's HP has already killed clutches and shafts in several manual NV4500 trannies. He has never kept that a secret. If he breaks something, we and ATS will be all over it so we can make it better and stronger. If it survives in his truck, obviously it'll do quite well for longer, in a truck with lesser HP. Not all of my customers, or BD's, or DTT's, are seeking mega-HP levels, therefore, broken shafts should not be a huge concern for the majority.

 

[Bob Wagner]

all the member want is the truth

No smoke and mirrors just the straight facts.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Re: all the member want is the truth

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

all the member want is the truth. No smoke and mirrors just the straight facts.

Buy that man a beer! Bob, I'm starting to like you more. Members want the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, myself included. Soon everyone will know exactly how the ATS transmission stacks up next to the DTT transmission. Let's here some more ideas for the comparison between the two, eh?

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Jim- did you say that Kevin Goode has broken an input shaft while shifting locked to locked?

 

[Bob Wagner]

the only question, I have

Is Bill K. got the boot so he can no longer post



But Don and Clint are free to post but choose not too.



Thats seem's odd

 

[LSMITH]

Re: the only question, I have

Originally posted by Bob Wagner

Is Bill K. got the boot so he can no longer post



But Don and Clint are free to post but choose not too.



Thats seem's odd

Why would that seem odd given the nature of these forums in the past year Bob?

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Don and Clint are two of the hardest working people I know of. They are still in the shop at 3:00 AM sometimes. They don't even have time to sleep, much less to post here. As for Bill, I think he can post now, but is so bitter about being kicked off and the verbal lashing he took in Vegas that I doubt we will here from him any time soon.

 

[GLASMITHS]

You mean that they did not drag race or pull sled with the great triple-lock? What are they just a bunch of dyno queens?



They might beat out others even there; however, how many people want a drag truck. IMHO, the true test is the long run, pulling 25K day in and day out over mountains in ever extreme condition. Time will tell; and also, I put my money where my mouth is.



2+2 does not equal 3 (triple) pun intended--------------



I actually hope it lasts and everyone is satisfied - If not there is going to be some war, and Bob Wagner will rub it in so bad

 

[Cummins Corvette]

GLASMITHS- Go to the ATS web site for info on pulling with their transmission- www.atsdiesel.com There is a person who delivers furniture for a living who has an ATS transmission with 40k+ miles on it with no problems. He gets up to 26k sometimes.

 

[GLASMITHS]

CUMMINS CORVETTE

No kidding. 40K is not a test. My stock with a BD milled stator went 75460, and was still pumping (slipping a little yeah). Is this all that is expected out of these trannys, including DTT? I could have gone back to dc and got one of those.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

briar said:Okay Jim, I see what you mean now. Actually, to understand about lock-to-lock shifting, you must keep in mind that in some transmission/torque convertor packages, shifting while locked is a bad idea.

i'm trying to under stand, if the convertor doesn't slip while it shifts, it's going to shift really hard right? i have shifted my transmission lock to lock and my convertor doesn't slip, but it shifts so dang hard it's scary!! while shifting in lock up i'm not worried about the convertor it's the rest of the transmission and drivetrain that worries me. so if there convertor doesn't slip what softens the blow on the rest of the transmission?



the person i'm talking about is kevin goode, he has broken at least one input shaft, twisted a couple of hubs and i'm sure he said that he broke a couple of intermediate shafts. we were just bs'ing so i might not be totally accurate but i'm close. kevin is hard on stuff, but he is still breaking stuff shifting in lock up.



jim

 

[JHansen]

You know-I'm gonna regret even posting on here-I do everytime I jump into threads like this. But I still do-must be a glutton for punishment I guess.



I'm not even pretending to put words in Bill's mouth-but I doubt he's truly bitter about his suspension now. Personally, I think he's just got better things to do now than get attacked on here every time he says what he has on his mind. Some people get upset by his bluntness-not me. I like guys that tell me exactly what they are thinking-if I get offended that's my problem not theirs. You guys can say what you will-Bill has put a lot of valuable info into these forums in the year and a half I've been around here. I haven't seen the same out of Don and Clint-just a lot of rah-rah for their product. I don't blame them for keeping low either-they've gotten savaged a few times and I will say I was one of the guys doing the ankle biting. Uncalled for? Maybe-maybe not. I guess time will tell... .



I don't know how the Triple-Lok is gonna stand up any better than anyone else does other than Miss Cleo or maybe her silent partner Illflem ! Lots smarter fellas than me have opinions both ways-I'll sit on the sidelines and see what happens. I just can't see how you can expect to make full-power shifts with everything locked up solid and keep everything alive. I didn't see a sprung hub (or hubs) in the pics I saw-but admittedly I didn't look that close. So what's expected to absorb the spike? Don't use the Allison analogy on me-two different trannys, two different sizings of internal parts, two different situations.



I never made it to MM-did you Chris? Someone PM me and let me know what this verbal lashing was that Bill got there. First I heard of it was here-must have been fairly top-secret to surface a week after things were over. Help explaint to an ignorant brother what's going on here-I'm out on my own island here in Ignorantville obviously.



Time will tell what's gonna shake out-and I'll be sitting passively on the sidelines sipping a Canadian and watching the goings-on I guess. Really wishing now I'd have made it to MM to see some of this first hand.

 

[Bob Wagner]

IF CC does send the PM include me on the CC



Tongue lashing please send me a copy too

 

[Cummins Corvette]

Wow! We've gone full circle again. That's ok, I'll explain it again. I'll do my best to tell you what Clint told me when I asked that same thing. (no kidding, I asked that EXACT same thing) What stops the transmission from breaking when shifting locked to locked? Two things: the dampener, and the way in which the transmission shifts.



First a little bit of how things work when the clutches engage. When a clutch or band is engaged there is a bunch of fluid that needs to be pushed out of the way. That fluid is necessary to keep the plates separated when they aren’t engaged so they don’t wear out when they aren’t engaged. Now as the fluid is squeezed out, just before the plates actually make contact, they start to have friction with each other and the pack begins to engage. This is the critical part. The plates must match speed before they actually make contact or they will wear out pretty fast. There is a very narrow window in which friction starts to occur but the plates are still separated by a microscopic layer of oil. This is why an old Chevy with a th-400 (or whatever) can come into a transmission shop with 350,000 miles on it and still have ABSOLUTELY NO WEAR on the clutches. The ink can still be read on the clutches in most cases. This is because the friction necessary to make the parts match speed occurs before they make contact.



So what do you need a torque converter for? Why doesn’t the transmission come shifting locked to locked from the factory? Because it takes VERY precise shift timing. It would be way to hard to make these things come out in batches of thousands with the precision necessary. The clutch must engage soft enough to not break things, but hard enough to engage fully before the fluid is completely gone and contact occurs and wears things out. This is why Chris (strik-9) welded his clutches together. The shifts weren’t hard enough to make the clutches engage before the oil was gone, and contact occurred.



Now if you take a most trannies with high line pressure and shift locked to locked, you will break things, but your clutches will be fine. This is not to say that ALL trannies with high line pressure will break things shifting locked to locked. You must adjust the size of the orifice in the valve body (that the oil goes through to engage the clutch or band) to make the clutch engage in that very narrow window I spoke of earlier. If you up the pressure, then you must make the hole smaller to keep it from shifting too hard and breaking things.



To recap, the transmission must shift hard enough to not wear out the clutches, and soft enough to not break things. This requires the very precise shift timing of the ATS valve body, and a tc that will take the abuse. I hope I explained it as well as Clint did.

 

[Cummins Corvette]

I don't think it was THAT bad, but Bill did take a beating Friday. I'll let someone else explain it because I might leave out something or say something that isn't exactly right. My memory isn't the very best; otherwise I'd tell the story. This happened at the technical seminars while Clint was up front talking about automatic transmissions. It was a total shutdown for Bill; he was so fired up that he was shaking badly. He brought it on himself though.

 

[JHansen]

Sooooo... ... modified valve bodies have been around pretty much since slushboxes were invented. So how is it that ATS all of a sudden figured out the precise orifice sizings and nobody else in the free world can? What I'm gathering is that the 350000 mile TH400 with precise enough shift timing to prevent even the ink being worn off the clutch plates should be able to handle lock-to-lock shifting? Can't see it... ... other factors at work here in my estimation. I ain't no transmission guru though.



Way I'm figuring things here-if the locked-up converter ain't slipping (which I'm pretty sure can be true even with a lowly DTT ) and you need to shift "soft enough not to break things" then there's gotta be clutch/band slippage-correct? Else you'd be breaking things? Isn't that where this whole thing started out-Bill's statement that shifting locked-to-locked will break parts? Soooo confused now... .



Just as a matter of mild curiosity-and I'm not being disrespectful to you here-how come Clint/Don/ATS in general is funneling all this info to us through you? I would think they'd like to have it all in the 1st person to make sure they get their points across. Curiosity on my part I guess.



Still waiting for somebody to fill me in on the verbal lashing deal.



Jason