Triple lock vs. single??

[wilddiesel]

Re: Re: What was the question??

Originally posted by jimk

Sir if I have lead the question off the path I did not intend on doing so. I just wont to know what it takes to have a good towing converter that has warranty. I am not going to spend 4k or 5k to be my own warrenty station. Nor am I going to mislead the manufacture my intention of its use... If the convertor and the transmission will go to lockup at 1500 and pull a trailer and hold, great. The idea of you can do that and it will probably work, but you are on your own is not for me. . jimk

I have had alot of experience in driving the #1 rated single disk convertor and the #1 rated triple disk convertor. The #1 rated single disk convertor has got way to low of a stall speed for high elevation or heavy loads in the real world. (Takes forever to spool turbo). The #1 rated triple disk has a lot higher stall rate so your turbo spools up much faster getting the load moving or out of the intersection or up the steep hill in a hurry and without getting a ticket for smoke (smoke tickets are very common here, up to 200. 00).

Yes I have tried all three 93%, 91% 89% stall ratings.

Next get complete information as to what your warranty is from each manufacture so as not to be surprised by hidden gimmicks.

In my opionion I do not think a single clutch convertor would hold up to a higher stall (that is needed to get heavy loads moving) that alot of the triple disk convertors do.

All information is my own experience and not intended for bashing.

Imagine if a company would come out with a very effective stator and a triple disk clutch. Best of both worlds.

As for a test for the strongest TORQUE CONVERTOR I would suggest putting a tripple disk and a single disk with identical stall ratings and no other transmission mods in a 400hp truck pulling 10,000 lbs at 55 miles per hour torque convertors locked up and hammer it.

 

[SEmerson]

I have a hard time believing that a 89% DTT is to tight. A stocker is very lose and that is a complaint there. I have ran my 97 with a 89% hr for a few years now. I have no problem with spool up. Both of my trucks are daily drivers. 10% of the time thay see a load. So I am not a dyno/sled pull only driver. Both of my trucks have marginal traction on takeoff. And that is with duals. If anything I would do a 91 on my 97 if I was to do it again. I have also been in the mountains. While spool up is slower it is still fine with me. It doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Maybe the need for a sloppy tc would be to soften the blow on a weak trans. That concept works for dodge. Or to help on a mis tuned truck. I certainly don't need a looser one.

 

[MVieira]

wilddiesel, I've got an 89% DTT converter and I'm sorry but I disagree with you. It spools very quick with an EZ and my HY turbo. I was at Yosimite in May and was around the 6000 ft. area towing my 8000 lb. 5th wheel, I was leaving an intersection and nailed it because a car was coming on alittle quicker than I thought and broke the 33" BFG MT's loose within 5 ft of the stop, I let of alittle to get traction back and got thru the intersection quickly. I'm real happy with the single disc because of the fluid coupling, it really makes hotrodding around town fun. I'm really only concerned with lockup once I'm up to speed and cruising. The truck really accelerates hard now. I put the EZ on awhile back and didn't really notice alot from it because of the loose stock converter. I also played with locked up shifts a few years ago with a TCI trans. in a '91 chevy pickup. They said thier trans. would take locked shifts for racing. I broke the flex plate first then went to a HD flex plate, then I broke the pinion cross in the diff. on a 14 bolt, so I'm alittle gun shy on locked up shifts. I did ride in an ATS equiped truck before I did mine and the performance was excellent, so I'm not trying to offend anyone but I did like the feel of the DTT better.

 

[wilddiesel]

I noticed you live in California at sea level and have driven once in awhile in the higher elevations, in this case a lower stall TC would be ok but when you are at higher elevation all of the time these lower stall TC eat you alive. I guess I wrote this wrong and should have said that I live high elevation and pull alot. Again I have had good luck with both brands of TC but better all around with the triple lock.

Originally posted by MVieira

wilddiesel, I've got an 89% DTT converter and I'm sorry but I disagree with you. It spools very quick with an EZ and my HY turbo. I was at Yosimite in May and was around the 6000 ft. area towing my 8000 lb. 5th wheel, I was leaving an intersection and nailed it because a car was coming on alittle quicker than I thought and broke the 33" BFG MT's loose within 5 ft of the stop, I let of alittle to get traction back and got thru the intersection quickly. I'm real happy with the single disc because of the fluid coupling, it really makes hotrodding around town fun. I'm really only concerned with lockup once I'm up to speed and cruising. The truck really accelerates hard now. I put the EZ on awhile back and didn't really notice alot from it because of the loose stock converter. I also played with locked up shifts a few years ago with a TCI trans. in a '91 chevy pickup. They said thier trans. would take locked shifts for racing. I broke the flex plate first then went to a HD flex plate, then I broke the pinion cross in the diff. on a 14 bolt, so I'm alittle gun shy on locked up shifts. I did ride in an ATS equiped truck before I did mine and the performance was excellent, so I'm not trying to offend anyone but I did like the feel of the DTT better.

 

[jimk]

warrenty

Next get complete information as to what your warranty is from each manufacture so as not to be surprised by hidden gimmicks.

I dont intend on misleading any one or a builder so there wont be any MISUNDERSTANDINGS if I have a problem.

What does a very short warranty tell you about the transmission or converter. For me it is the builder doesn't think that is will last long. The reason is probably because of what I wont the transmission to do. Funny thing is several guys are doing the same thing but they doing so at there own risk?

As I watched my neighbor drive by in his dodge diesel and he had a goose neck trailer on it full of high dollar horses. He did don't drive it like he stoled it or hammer it. He owns 7 ranches, and seventy producing oil wells so he can afford to buy what he wonts. He is not going to hot rod anything. He had 90k miles on his truck also, and he has never heard of TDR. My point is there are a lot of guys who drive a dodge like it is a piece of equipment not a corvette. If a multi- disc converter, with good fluid coupling is better to suit the needs of guy like us and it has a 100k miles warranty and no time line what else could ask for? This is not personal just business.

Just another unpopular idea. jimk

 

[Jim Fulmer]

[/IMG]#ad




Hum... . looks like a Corvette to me



Jim

 

[Matt400]

Originally posted by wilddiesel

when you are at higher elevation all of the time these lower stall TC eat you alive.

What do you consider higher?

Is your reasoning the thinner air for less turbo performance?

 

[Chipstien]

Originally posted by smoop

Josh,

Yes you purchased a Sun Coast single disc approx 2 years ago.

When you seemed to think you had a problem I offered to warranty the converter if you would return it. You would not give the supplier the opportunity to remedy a problem or even determine what the problem is. It seems you would rather keep it in your box, this way the real answer will never arrive and you have something to post and ***** about. People who wake up each day looking for a reason to be offended are never disappointed.

smoop

I think the TDR guidlines states something about dealers and manufacturers having to make it well known that they have an affiliation with someone or something. Knowing you are a dealer or maunufacturer puts your posts on a totally different level. You have something to gain by promoting your products.

 

[Chipstien]

FWIW, I have no problem accelerating from a dead stop with my 8000 pound trailer at 5000 ft with minimal smoke and minimal lag. Did I forget to mention that this is with the 91% and a Hybrid HX-50/55.

 

[jimk]

mileage

Originally posted by Chipstien

FWIW, I have no problem accelerating from a dead stop with my 8000 pound trailer at 5000 ft with minimal smoke and minimal lag. Did I forget to mention that this is with the 91% and a Hybrid HX-50/55.

That is quite impressive. What would you say your mileage is, I have a friend who has a truck similar to your. His mileage is poor, so any advice would be great Thanks jim

 

[John - K5AWO]

Jim Fulmer-



Looks like an Oklahoma mowed hay field to me



Nice truck too... .



Spent 26 years growing up between Yukon and OKC. Sand burs in the feet in places that now have concrete jungle

 

[fox]

Re: Re: Re: What was the question??

.

Imagine if a company would come out with a very effective stator and a triple disk clutch. Best of both worlds.

As for a test for the strongest TORQUE CONVERTOR I would suggest putting a tripple disk and a single disk with identical stall ratings and no other transmission mods in a 400hp truck pulling 10,000 lbs at 55 miles per hour torque convertors locked up and hammer it. [/B][/QUOTE]



I read this as a statement that the current triple disc converter that you are familiar with is too loose for you?

Also, do you know what happens with any stock trans at 400 hp?



you would blow right thru the direct and forward clutches-weld then together and then blame a converter clutch?



Three clutches in the converter has been proven many times as over kill. One good one works.

I am at 650 ft. elevation. It has been at 6000 ft and is a little slower. There is less air.

My set-up works fine with a 89 converter.

Yes it does nor blow away the tires with-in 1-2 seconds of flat footing the throttle, because it is set-up on choice.

All I need to do is retune the motor in acertain way and it will spool quicker. I don't want a loose converter.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Looks like an Oklahoma mowed hay field to me





Yep, right beside the house..... it's been Monsoon season here so it's alive and well.





you would blow right thru the direct and forward clutches-weld then together and then blame a converter clutch?



Ding, we have a winner!





Jim

 

[LaserBob]

Jim,



You are good! I think it is a corvette. Maybe a Fulmer/Callaway or Fulmer/Harry.



I like your style.

 

[jimk]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What was the question??

Originally posted by jimk

I read this as a statement that the current triple disc converter that you are familiar with is too loose for you?

Also, do you know what happens with any stock trans at 400 hp?



you would blow right thru the direct and forward clutches-weld then together and then blame a converter clutch?



Three clutches in the converter has been proven many times as over kill. One good one works.

I am at 650 ft. elevation. It has been at 6000 ft and is a little slower. There is less air.

My set-up works fine with a 89 converter.

Yes it does nor blow away the tires with-in 1-2 seconds of flat footing the throttle, because it is set-up on choice.

All I need to do is retune the motor in acertain way and it will spool quicker. I don't want a loose converter.

I don't have any aftermarket transmission or converter. Stock. So no one will accuse me of Flag Waving. The single disc converter holds in lockup at what rpm or oil pressure? There is a reason to these questions. I don't wont to short shift or but some times you have to drive the posted speed limit. I try to all of the time.

Please be honest here. Are you expected to use fluid coupling when towing all of the time? How much mileage will that cost you. If you don't care, good for you, I do.

If the speed limit drops to 65 or even 60 and you are in overdrive and the rpms drop to below 1750 what are you going to do when pulling a load of 8k or 12k lb.

Have you ever know what the oil pressure is at 1550 or 1500 rpm. Will the transmission or just the converter( in lockup) be at risk? If it makes no difference then ok, how ever if the reason is because the single disc in the converter need 150 lb to hold but the transmission requires less. Since the clutches are additive, will several clutches hold more in the converter? All things being equal if the converter has a good stator design, equal to the single disc converter and has more than one disc, will hold better at the lower rpm in lockup, is that a bad thing?

Over kill is not all ways a bad thing or is billet shafts and drums the exception here. There are some great trucks out there but would your truck in it state of tune make the general masses happy and would it give you good mileage as to be expected by a customer when towing. Please give a reason based the know truth. Each clutch pack requires x anount of oil or spring pressure to hold y and amount of torque. I am only asking here the reason, not touchy feeley ideas. Thanks jim [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[Chipstien]

Re: mileage

Originally posted by jimk

That is quite impressive. What would you say your mileage is, I have a friend who has a truck similar to your. His mileage is poor, so any advice would be great Thanks jim

Over the course of 2003 my mileage averaged 15. 55 mpg. Not sure what my mileage was while towing since I never really noted whether I was towing or not.



As for my 2 cents on the fluid coupling issue... . the only time I would consider a stock milled stator over the DTT setup would be on a bone stock truck. However if you add any HP then you will blow right through the stator. When I started my bombing quest I installed current mods (less turbo) before I got my trans done. (Two weeks before I left for DTT). With the power turned up I could literally sit at 3200 rpms.



Imagine sitting at a stop light. Lght turns green so you floor it. After about a second of lag, (HY turbo), the rpms climb almost instantly to 3200 and sit there. But wait, your still accelerating. It reached 3200 before the speedo hit 16 mph. Finally you get to a speed where the trans goes to second. Could hardly tell though because the tach was still pinned at 3200. OK, so it now shifts to 3rd and the rpms drop to 3000 but oops, I blinked and it is at 3200 again. Finally OD comes along. And finally the tach drops under 3000. The TC clutch locks up sometime right after the shift into 4th. Even with a bone stock trans the factory single was holding the motor. Granted, not sure how long it would have lasted under that kind of abuse but it was in fact holding.



This was my experience with the factory milled stator. Now with the 91% I can watch the tach go up somewhat proportionatly to the speedo. Plus being more efficient I get better gas milage and there is only about 100 rpm drop when I go into lock up. See I wanted a auto that felt like a manual. Not an auto that would see the tach shoot up 500 rpms by just depressing the accelerator.



As for those that think the DTT can't tow. Start a new thread that says" What do you think of your DTT while towing". I think you would be in for a surprise.

 

[Chipstien]

BTW, as for my mileage. That 15. 55 was with 35" tires too. Stock my truck never got better then 16. 5 and I play with the extra HP all the time.

 

[SEmerson]

As far as a triple disk converter and a loose stall speed being the best of both worlds. I disagree. This post is not aimed at any builder it is about converter concept in general. After the research I did before I bought my trans these are the conclusions I can up with. A tight converter is important with a diesel because of it's very low rpm power band. As far as a multi disk converter the ones I looked at added much weight to the unit. So while fixing a holding surface issue they added other concerns. You now have added weight on the flex plate and added weight to spin up. :-{}

 

[jimk]

mileage

Sir thank your for your post. That is real close to what my friend gets.

I can go to 28oo or so easy any time I wont to if I stand on it in fluid coupling. But what would be the point. Prove I can destroy my transmission. . I have 100k miles on it and I could do the flash the converter for 45k miles ago. After a fuel plate and governor kit.

The reason I have asked it to learn if a multi disc converter is better for towing. Not a multi Disc converter that has poor fluid coupling BUT on that has GOOD fluid coupling?

I realize that saying even it might, MAY put you at risk with you vendor. Would not wont to do that. I wont nothing for free or any deal like that so that eliminates me. Just good product and a good warrant for a fair price. Cheapest is not always the best. I have no use for mutual admiration committee or forum, just honest answers. jim

 

[LaserBob]

I am biased. I am a DTT dealer. I tow every day. I would say that I tow 70-80% of the time. I live at 4500' elevation and from here most of the places I go are higher.



My trailer weighs about 6400#. It is a 6X12 tandem axle WW cargo trailer. Most of my driving is in town, with the occasional trip to denver or Ft Collins.



I have the 89% converter and a fair running truck. If the temp outside is way up (90 or more), and the A/C is on, and I am on a hill to start out, and I just ignore sensible driving habits, I make a lot of smoke. If I think before I apply the throttle, I run with most of the traffic and only make a haze. This converter is nice to drive with. I ran a 91% for the first year that I had DTT parts and I think the 89% is the best for this elevation for all around usage.



I continue to get 14 - 16 MPG while doing my daily driving. If I hook up my 24' camper and run up I-25 north of Cheyenne at 65 to 70 my mileage goes to about 11. 5.



Last summer, I went to Muncie (wow) and ran Fwy speeds + 3mph most of the trip. I had no load in the truck. The tally after the trip netted an overall avg of 21. 5mpg.



My total assesment is that the tight converters are much more fun to drive than the stock slushbox that dodge gives us.



That's my story and I'm sticken' to it!



LaserBob