Competition Triple Turbo Chargers

[ThrottleJockey]

Again, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around this high horsepower stuff. This site seems to be the place to go to get your questions answered! Thank you!

Anyway, I know the point of running twins is to have two chargers with different performance parameters acting together as a super responsive giant turbo, but... ..... isn't running triples to the point of diminishing returns? Would'nt the big one be choked to death by the little one?



Or, are they NOT sequential?



What if two little ones fed one big one? Three manifold runners to each small turbo. But it wouldnt spool worth a darn, would it? Hey, what would happen if... you flipped the above around, One big one feeding two smaller ones! Like a B-1 spooling two HY-35s? Would that work? Is that a triple turbo? What if you did the hot side like that and plumbed the cold side sequentially? Would that work... . ? Probably just break something.

Brian

 

[azcummins]

OH NO, I've gone cross-eyed.

 

[jwilliams3]

Brian,

Check this out:

http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30

 

[Jim Fulmer]

That was 3 Months ago..... were waiting!

 

[ThrottleJockey]

jwilliams3



THAT'S what I'm talking about!

 

[HVAC]

Triple Chargers

BDoty, it's my opinion that twin chargers can get the job done quite well. Not sure what the advantage of paralleling the turbos mounted on the engine is. The system on the ATS site is a two stage system with the high pressure chargers in parallel.



If you need pressure in the 200 psi range then you would go to a three stage charger system to achieve the big numbers. Not necessary for our engines IMO.

 

[Smokewagon]

This is kinda off "color" but............

years ago, the International Harvester (farm sled pullers) favorite was a 1066 with a stock block 414 cu. in. running (3) some even ran (4) chargers, water injected and a HUGE inj. pump along with other little tricks that I wasn't privy to, and was getting close to 2500 + H. P. out of that little inline 6 banger. Even though I'm dyed in the wool DEERE, (by the way, they're best! It was hard to beat the red ones. My neighbor moved here from Maryland and was the past NTPA champion for several years running, he pulled a 1466 (436 cu. in. ) with 3 chargers. Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is other than it prolly wouldn't be feasable to run on the street (unless for play purposes) and definately not a dependable choice for the farm scene, (pulling trailers). I think that Ken Jones up at Diesel Performance is doing just that on his 03. (3 chargers). The sky is the limit, it seems to me that if you can find the room and have the CA$H, anything is possible.

 

[Smokewagon]

Sorry!

I got click happy

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Triple chargers....

Cough!! (Scheid's truck... ) Cough!!



Man - I'm allergic to something.



Matt

 

[Smokewagon]

OK

Please... ... ... ..... clue us in on what you mean? Remember, not all of us live in the same areas and know the same people.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

I'm building a triples truck for a customer.



Triples can be as streetable as twins. You just have to size the exhaust housings and set up the wastegates properly.



The name of the game is charge density. By running multiple stages with multiple intercoolers and an aftercooler you can get a much cooler air charge.



twins can make 120+(3:1 on both stages) psi if driven hard enough. But it would be like running 48+psi of boost on an hx35. You can do it but it's hard on the charger and the returns are diminishing on boost over 38# or so. You quickly begin to overwhelm the cooling system. the aftercooler becomes heat soaked then the air charge heats up. Meanwhile the after cooler is in front of the radiator causing it to be less efficient. before long you have a cascading effect that leads to overheating or at a minimum reduced power.



given a 14psi input 3 turbos at 2:1 gives 2x2x2=8 *14 =

112 psi of cool boost. add to that multistage cooling and you have the potential to make as much power as you can supply fuel (atomized of course). with a 2500 cfm primary a HUGE second and a REALLY BIG third stage. . all ceramic ball bearing of course air for combustion is not a question, its a given



Fortify the sytem with very efficient radiators and a couple if air:water intercoolers and a really big aftercooler and an ice resovior . . maybe a little water/methanol mix and a couple stages of nitrous for good measure. . then you have a system capable of very high sustained output.



the real trick is keeping the head on the engine. at 1000hp the internal pressures on the cylinders will be at or above 60,000psi. Head bolts and rod bearings quickly become weak points as do head gaskets.



I'm just hoping the transmission that he has will stick around for a few passes or pulls.



Later,

Mark

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Mark said: "Meanwhile the after cooler is in front of the radiator causing it to be less efficient. "



Are you talking about radiant heat from the radiator? Because the other option (putting the IC behind the radiator) would be a step in the completely wrong direction.



Where else do you propose putting the IC... or for that matter, the radiator?



No flames intended - just curious.



Matt

 

[Gonzo 1066]

triplets+good!

If you need information on triples and water injection for charge air cooling try.

#1 Hypermax Engeneering. Yes the Ford power guys. They cut there teeth on inline 6s and triples.

#2 Esdon Leihn, #1 super stock diesel puller in the country. SS diesel is a 3 stage 3 or 4 charger tractor.

#3 Staab diesel A top notch fabricator of hot diesel engines.

#4 Max Simson one of the originals of the 3 stage charger bunch and a founder of the water injection insted of intercooling train of thought.



There are many others these are just a few of the ones I know of There is no reason the 5. 9 cant take triples if properly prepaired. However the usefulness of a 3 charger setup on the street escapes me.



This is just my opinion. I hope there is no offence taken there is none intended.

 

[Chipstien]

The reason for triples= the cool factor

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Originally posted by HoleshotHolset

Mark said: "Meanwhile the after cooler is in front of the radiator causing it to be less efficient. "



Are you talking about radiant heat from the radiator? Because the other option (putting the IC behind the radiator) would be a step in the completely wrong direction.



Where else do you propose putting the IC... or for that matter, the radiator?



No flames intended - just curious.



Matt

What it meant was if you have an insufficient aftercooler it will soon build more heat than it can radiate causing hot air to flow over the radiator then the radiator looses the ability to cool the engine.



And there are other places to put the aftercooler, you just have to be a little creative



What chipstein said

 

[Smokewagon]

HEY GONZO

I think you and I are on the same page here And although, i'm sure that your 10 would make it farther down the track if we changed colors Seriously, I know EXACTLY what you mean, Danny Dean would be proud of your post. I think LaGaud personally did some work on his cross flow didn't he? If Hypermax made a head for a little 5. 9 we'd be SETOo. Chipstein I would love to see Tri C's on the street just for ooh's and aah's myself, but if you go with the theory that Gonzo and I were talking about, I don't think their idea was to do it for "Cooling" purposes, as a whole. Meaning, I believe that their TOTAL objective was to release a "left handed power" 8" stream of coal black smoke at 230 lbs. + of manifold pressure STRAIGHT UP in the form of a telephone pole that never "bent" untill it was about 20+ feet out of the stack! And, at about 2500 shetlands! What a show these boys could and do put on! It's too bad the EPA is on their case and are making them reduce their smoke. The big boys are running diesel stock/modified blocks with ALCOHOL now and producing 5,000+ H. P. GREAT except that's the way they're getting the H. P. and keeping it cool. Heck they're dry/concreted blocks too! Back to our trucks... . I Personally don't think we have the room under the hood for trips, without MAJOR mods. Not saying it can't be, nor has it been done. (That would be a mechanics nightmare), and I personally don't think it is pheasable to run on the street, under the pretenses as the big superstock farm class pullers. The capability for the desired 1000+ hp is there, just not on the street and make it live. Now, with that being said... . since I have never did or attempted that I'm probably gonna stand corrected in the near future. I know trips are already out there. I guess my best comparison would be like putting a top fuel dragster motor in a p/u and expecting it to live set in the KILL position ALL the time. Did ANY of this make sense?



Dave

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Gonzo said: "#3 Staab diesel A top notch fabricator of hot diesel engines. "



These are the billet cylinder head guys. I don't even want to guess at what that stuff goes for - but it's worth it at any price.



Mark - just get ride of the IC altogether and run lots of water injection. I've seen it done.



Matt

 

[R.ebel]

Trips

I got a good close look at the ATS truck with the triples on it in Jan. They had to heat up a large portion of the frame up with a torch and smash it flat to make room for all the chargers I was kind of shocked to see the frame like that... It had to effect the steering geometry somehow? Getting three chargers to fit without resorting to such extreme measures will be a real challenge for anybody who attemps it.

 

[Gonzo 1066]

trips

You have to understand that the diesel SS boys are shelling out major money for engine modifications. Billit aluminum dual overhead cams have been done. Aftermarket iron hemi heads have been done. And these have been done for the Johndeere and International Harvester inline 6s. We are talking near $9000 for a bare cast iron head that will flow double the stock ported casting. I have no idea how much a aluminum billit 4 valve head would run. If the diesel truck pullers keep going for more power this will be the next LOGICAL??!! step. Water or water alcohol injection into the intake has proven itself to be much more effective and safer than intercoolers. Try to make a large vessel that will contain 200 to 250 psi. IT is very hard to do . . Both American and National tractor pullers have banned intercoolers because of past cooler explosions. We had straps welded to the charge air pipes and turnbuckles over the connector hozes just to keep the boots from blowing off. Good luck guys it is a long hard and smokey road. A few will survive many will be discouraged and more will go broke in the persuit of the tripples.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I wonder how many folks monitor intake air temps on a constant basis?



This would be something to think about for those with compounded turbos... .



Matt