Competition Triples anyone??

[dramer]

CFM FLOW HX60W

Christian this is the correct formula if you want to make a public statement on pressure and CFM from a HX60W this is a 400kw charger. I’m not sure about how much more education we should give you. Christian you might want to get better support when discussing something you certainly don’t know what your talking about. So with this in mind we will not go any further with doing the rest of the math for you on p_2 air with pressure drop.

This was figured from our Engineering Dept & Cummins Power.

Using this conversion from Holset & Cummins.



(48 deg F Air at intake) Conversion factor 1243 cfm is equivalent to, mass flow of 88lbm/min.

The conversion is as follows:

0. 7kg/sec=1305cfm

0. 93kg/sec=1734cfm HX60W



Don Ramer

 

[cmonroe]

Croth, I have know idea where you got your numbers from?? If a Hy30-9sq will flow 880cfm's I along with all the other TDR members should have just left the stock turbo on my truck. Since you say that the Hy-30 will out flow all 35 Hybrids, hx-40's and H2E's. What are you saying Christian, two Hx-40's should be on the top since they flow less air than the Hy-30's??? I think you need to go to the Holset website and learn to work the P-2 equations.

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Originally posted by cmonroe

Croth, I have know idea where you got your numbers from?? If a Hy30-9sq will flow 880cfm's I along with all the other TDR members should have just left the stock turbo on my truck. Since you say that the Hy-30 will out flow all 35 Hybrids, hx-40's and H2E's. What are you saying Christian, two Hx-40's should be on the top since they flow less air than the Hy-30's??? I think you need to go to the Holset website and learn to work the P-2 equations.

Here ya go big guy... ... ..... right from the holset website. Since the HX35 was old generation stuff with less HP, I'd assume that the HY35 is probably a little more efficient.



HX35



Designed primarily for 6 cylinder engines of 5. 0 to 6. 5 litre capacity the HX 35 turbocharger has higher flow aerodynamics capable of providing up to 0. 46 kg/s at 3. 0:1.



A number of compressor and turbine options are available all featuring excellent map width,pressure ratio and efficiency.



Enhanced durability compressors are available.



Standard Features

* Choice of turbine housing materials to cover a wide range of temperatures.

* Compressor and turbine wheels selected for optimum airflow, efficiency and pressure ratio.

* Fully adjustable compressor and turbine housing orientation.

* Fully floating twin hydrodynamic journal bearings.

* High efficiency compressors with broad operating ranges.

* High pressure ratio capability.

* Superback compressor wheels for extended life and durability at high turbo speeds.

* Symmetrical twin flow turbine housings.

* Variety of compressor and turbine housing flanges available.



Optional Features

* CNG Engine version.

* MWE (Map Width Enhancement) compressor inlet.

* Sound suppression baffles.

* Watercooled bearing housings.



Dimensions HX35

Length mm 224

Width mm 250

Height mm 169

Smallest Mass kg 9

Largest Mass kg 11

Airflow kg/s 0. 46 = 885 cfm

 

[cmonroe]

There you go assuming that the hy-30 with a 9 sq housing is capable of outflowing a hx-35 with a 12 sq housing. Not the case Christian. It is actually more than 10% less air flow than the hx-35>Oo.

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Originally posted by cmonroe

There you go assuming that the hy-30 with a 9 sq housing is capable of outflowing a hx-35 with a 12 sq housing. Not the case Christian. It is actually more than 10% less air flow than the hx-35>Oo.

Again big guy your wrong, the flow rating of a turbocharger is solely based on the compressor side. The turbine housing is only a "gear" to drive the compressor wheel.

 

[ATSDiesel]

Quote (Andrew)

I wish they would do an update on the "Tractor Pulling" chapter of that book.





That was my favorite chapter in the book when I read it in high school, I turbo charged a 5. 7L gas motor from the info I learned from it, That was one brutally fast vehicle, just could not keep the bottom end in the engine. In the book there is an example of compounds that run 250 PSI manifold pressure with about 2 gallons of water injected between the stages, Very cool



Quote (Andrew)

As for twin HY's, their is a compounding effect, after they flow through the HY's they are compounded into the HX60. I would have used a different BIG turbo with this theory, but what do I know, I'm just a college student!





Andrew, I don’t know if you miss-typed or you did not see the routing of the piping. The air is compounded through the HY-30’s simultaneously. I will explain this lower in this post.





Quote (Christen)

If you take a look at it, the triples are not sequential. It looks like each HY is feeding 3 cylinders, and the HX-60 will be feeding the two HYs. So really you have a twin charger setup on a 3 cylinder times 2.



In this setup the HYs are too large, and the HX-60 would be too small. The HYs flow around 880 CFM and the HX60 flows 942 cfm (1885 cfm divided by 2 turbos), essentially there will be no compounding effect.

But heck it looks good.

Tripleloc converters must be selling.



Christen, Your math is incorrect on the big turbo, but that doesn’t really matter right now. The disadvantage to compounding turbos is in a few areas. Heat is the number one major killer. This is why the tractor pullers run massive amounts of water between the stages to keep the high pressure air cool. When the air is compressed it expands, as the air expands the volume of air is less. In other words the volumetric effiency goes down as boost goes up. This is why with typical compound systems (2 chargers) max out around the 85 PSI range. Yes they will make more boost but don’t make more power. Air density is the name of the game.

A few problem areas have been removed from this equation. Problem number one, the exhaust on a typical system must all squeeze through one turbo than through a waste gate. This is a major problem when going after a large volume of air with high pressure. The second area is the compressed air leaving the compressor of the big turbo, the air compounds in the second compressor and the nasty heat thing takes place then the air expands then there goes your volume. Now you have to go through the intercooler, the intercooler is also fairly restrictive. This is one reason you don’t often see them on the tractor pullers. There are several road blocks (restrictions) that rise up in the whole air flow thing to the motor.

The restrictions have been reduced at the turbine inlet, the (compound) compressor or small ones, the intercooler and the intake. This system has been engineered to flow a high volume of air at high pressure with out the heat.

Christen, last year you made a comment or post of lots of “drugs’ going on the trucks around truck fest. This is a no drugs truck. You have gotten what you asked for. Now its your time for us to play. Biased on your comments it sounds like you are challenging me to a race, I excepted. The closest thing I can think of is may madness. I have noticed you haven’t sold your truck yet, that’s good. If the Dodge wont work for you then I believe you still have a Duramax. Summer is just around the corner.



Quote (Matt)

The engine already has a blow-off-valve.

It's called the headgasket!



Matt, I like your sence of humor. I share it. This won’t be the first time this has happened. Thanks for the funny post

Clint Cannon

www.ATSDiesel.com

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Originally posted by CCannon





Christen, Your math is incorrect on the big turbo, but that doesn’t really matter right now. The disadvantage to compounding turbos is in a few areas. Heat is the number one major killer. This is why the tractor pullers run massive amounts of water between the stages to keep the high pressure air cool. When the air is compressed it expands, as the air expands the volume of air is less. In other words the volumetric effiency goes down as boost goes up. This is why with typical compound systems (2 chargers) max out around the 85 PSI range. Yes they will make more boost but don’t make more power. Air density is the name of the game.

I'll agree the name of the game is air density, but air density is not solved by find as many chargers as you can and throwing them on an engine. Your thoughts are correct, but the design is lacking. The comment about twin chargers being maxed at 85 psi is untrue, the chargers that are used for existing twins are in fact cheap large turbos, that if your lucky run in the 70% efficiency range. Most of the stuff that is used is for the street not for the race track. Try some of the new ball bearing turbos that are 80% efficient.

A few problem areas have been removed from this equation. Problem number one, the exhaust on a typical system must all squeeze through one turbo than through a waste gate. This is a major problem when going after a large volume of air with high pressure. The second area is the compressed air leaving the compressor of the big turbo, the air compounds in the second compressor and the nasty heat thing takes place then the air expands then there goes your volume. Now you have to go through the intercooler, the intercooler is also fairly restrictive. This is one reason you don’t often see them on the tractor pullers. There are several road blocks (restrictions) that rise up in the whole air flow thing to the motor.

The restrictions have been reduced at the turbine inlet, the (compound) compressor or small ones, the intercooler and the intake. This system has been engineered to flow a high volume of air at high pressure with out the heat.

There is no doubt that you reduced the back pressure caused by one secondary, but this is where a big problem is. You will have no air velocity for low RPM and by the time you hit high RPM the HX-60 will be running out of flow.



The biggest reason why pulling tractors don't run intercoolers is they are not that efficient at 25mph. To get the efficiency up the intercooler would have to be huge, a tractor doesn't have the much frontal area. Also think of the strength that the intercooler would need to hold up to 200+psi. Besides ideally you would want to run intercoolers between stages, could you imagine the piping.



If the intercooler is so restrictive and the system runs so cool why do you have two intercoolers?

Christen, last year you made a comment or post of lots of “drugs’ going on the trucks around truck fest. This is a no drugs truck. You have gotten what you asked for. Now its your time for us to play. Biased on your comments it sounds like you are challenging me to a race, I excepted. The closest thing I can think of is may madness. I have noticed you haven’t sold your truck yet, that’s good. If the Dodge wont work for you then I believe you still have a Duramax. Summer is just around the corner.

I made that comment after you guys where injecting "nitro" into your trucks. Why don't you guys try diesel?



Last year at Truckfest I beat you guys and set the fastest qualifying pass, and heck I didn't even receive my $100 purse for it. So maybe this year your fast. Heck sure I'll race, but the Silver dodge is gone, so I'll have to beat you with the Duramax or some other truck.



Why are so concerned with my opinion anyway? If your so right prove me wrong. When you start posting pictures in the public eye, your always going to get some negative comments. You should have learned by now to accept the good with the bad.



Dude, the name is spelled Christian.

 

[Johnboy3]

Triples?

Ok, here's the next project. Duplicate this on a smaller scale.



4 Turbos

 

[Strick-9]

CRoth,



The last several months you have really impressed me. You've changed from the typical vendor pushing his products at all costs to a guy who posts mainly to promote facts and correct the people spreading false information. Not sure how many other people have picked up on this, but from one who has, THANKS!



CCannon,



Did you make a mistake in your typing on this sentence?



"When the air is compressed it expands"



Doesn't that defy the very definition of compression?



Or this?



"as the air expands the volume of air is less. "



When something expands, volume increases.



Or this?



"In other words the volumetric effiency goes down as boost goes up. "



Do you even know what volumetric efficiency is? It's a percentage. It's the actual air volume that gets into the combustion chamber divided by the maximum displacement of each cylinder. As boost increases (air is more dense) more air enters the chamber therefore the VE increases. That's the very reason that turbos allow increased power.



But hopefully, those we just typos.



Here are some engineering numbers you can chew on. Turbos, with the currently level of technology, can only reach efficiencies of about 75% or so. If you built a twin setup where both turbos operated at 75% you would have a great setup for max power. I believe that's what you are trying to do.



At 90 psi of boost, the air temp leaving the second turbo is 628°F.

That's the LOWEST possible temperature of air using any turbo.



It sounds really nice to talk of big compressors and cool air, but you need to understand the thermodynamics behind them. We have laws of thermodynamics that we are bound by.



I think the point Christian is trying to make is that with the relative sizes of your turbos, the large turbo is going to make very little boost. At little boost the turbo will operate in a very low efficiency state. Thus the inlet temps will be MUCH higher than on a proper system.



Just trying to save you some money. I really want to see ATS start competing hard and making some serious power. Those midwest boys with their manual trannies need a good stompin'.



-Chris

 

[Hammer]

Johnboy...

I see you have almost finished the new engine for your 1000hp Ford project. One little question though,how are ya going to get it out of Metzgers garage and under the hood of your truck without Ol Sleddy finding out????. also,I know for a fact there is waaaayyyy to much chrome on that thing to go into your truck. . ... ..... Andy



P. S. -Triples,Hmmm lets see here,is there not a shop from the midwest that did that already?????.

 

[Johnboy3]

1000? That baby is crankin 2k+! Eight more inches of body lift let her slide right in.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Jim, do you know just where that guy really lives? I hear something different every time! He must be elusive!



Can I interrupt here... ... Try posting a message on www.headsupreview.com about Mike Moran, I really haven't heard much about him since the World Street Finals last year... just that he is swamped.



Jim



P. S. thanks for letting me get off the topic.

 

[Mark_Kendrick]

Now let's talk physics!!!

the mass of dry, sea level air 59* is 1. 225 kg/m^3



1 m = 3. 28 ft



1 m^3 = 35. 287552 cuft



. 46 kg/s * 60s/min =27. 6 kg/min



27. 6 kg/min * 0. 81632653 m^3/kg * 35. 287552 cuft/m^3 = 788. 57 CFM



Keep in mind this is dry air now. once you account for a bit of water 1. 275 kg



763. 87 CFM



not 880 CFM



FWIW,

Mark

 

[StakeMan]

880 cfm out of a HY35-9cm and still be in its effeicency range?

 

[Jim Fulmer]

http://forums.atsdiesel.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41



How about answering this thread... . dang I even PM'ed it before hand!



Intake temp at 60 degrees, that's the best one yet... . built like the Extreme Intercooler thread pics.



Jim

 

[TxDieselKid]

Originally posted by CCannon

That was my favorite chapter in the book when I read it in high school,... .

Mine too, that's why I would LOVE to see an update, I think the last version was in '84(?), I was 4 years old at the time.

Andrew, I don’t know if you miss-typed or you did not see the routing of the piping. The air is compounded through the HY-30’s simultaneously. I will explain this lower in this post.

Clint, thanks for posting the pics in the first place, but all that black coating does make it tricky to look at, I had to use the photoshop editor to play with the contrasts/colors a little. Anyways, I was refering to the hot side of the turbos, not the cold side. Sorry for miss-leading.



Good luck on this project, as it looks like a fun one.

Not sure how many other people have picked up on this, but from one who has, THANKS!

Chris, I noticed this about 2 weeks ago also, and I completly agree. There has never been any doubt that he knows his I TRIED TO BY-PASS THE CUSSING FILTER, and boy does it show now. Good form CHRISTIAN



Andrew

 

[Diesel Freak]

Originally posted by Strick-9

CRoth,



The last several months you have really impressed me. You've changed from the typical vendor pushing his products at all costs to a guy who posts mainly to promote facts and correct the people spreading false information. Not sure how many other people have picked up on this, but from one who has, THANKS!



CCannon,



Did you make a mistake in your typing on this sentence?



"When the air is compressed it expands"



Doesn't that defy the very definition of compression?



Or this?



"as the air expands the volume of air is less. "



When something expands, volume increases.



Or this?



"In other words the volumetric effiency goes down as boost goes up. "



Do you even know what volumetric efficiency is? It's a percentage. It's the actual air volume that gets into the combustion chamber divided by the maximum displacement of each cylinder. As boost increases (air is more dense) more air enters the chamber therefore the VE increases. That's the very reason that turbos allow increased power.



But hopefully, those we just typos.



Here are some engineering numbers you can chew on. Turbos, with the currently level of technology, can only reach efficiencies of about 75% or so. If you built a twin setup where both turbos operated at 75% you would have a great setup for max power. I believe that's what you are trying to do.



At 90 psi of boost, the air temp leaving the second turbo is 628°F.

That's the LOWEST possible temperature of air using any turbo.



It sounds really nice to talk of big compressors and cool air, but you need to understand the thermodynamics behind them. We have laws of thermodynamics that we are bound by.



I think the point Christian is trying to make is that with the relative sizes of your turbos, the large turbo is going to make very little boost. At little boost the turbo will operate in a very low efficiency state. Thus the inlet temps will be MUCH higher than on a proper system.



Just trying to save you some money. I really want to see ATS start competing hard and making some serious power. Those midwest boys with their manual trannies need a good stompin'.



-Chris

Strick-9, good thing you jumped in on this one, I was going to blast this guy with both barrels

 

[Diesel Freak]

JMHO, but I would have to say that an HX60 is a way too small for the large turbo in this system by about half.



Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks like discharge air from the HX60 is split and sent to the HY's which in this case are in parallel.



I am not quite sure, and I hope someone will correct me if I am wrong, but the HY35 will max out at close to . 46kg/sec @ a PR of 3. 0



The HX60 maxes out at . 93 kg/sec @ a PR of 3. 3



therefore going by these numbers alone to feed the parallel HY's (which when run by themselves would move . 92kg/sec) you would need a turbo capable of close to 1. 8 kg/sec @ a PR of 2.



Total PR for this system would be 6 and peak boost would be 73. 5 PSI



The HX60 is WAY too small!



If you still want to use the parallel HY's for the cool factor, you will need a turbo that is larger that the Garrett T-100 which moves 1. 36kg/sec of air.



If you really want to use the HX60 feeding two HY35's in parallel... . Christian is correct... the HY35's will surge, and no pressure compounding will take place!





Call me crazy, but for some reason a twin system using a PDR40 with a 18cm housing as the small turbo and a Garrett T-88 as the big turbo sounds really good when used on a 12 valve with a 4000rpm spring kit.



Put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

[Diesel Freak]

One more thing to consider. Will you be able to spin the engine fast enough to keep the air demand high enough to keep all three turbo's from surging? What I am saying is that if you were to use a primary turbo large enough to feed the HY's, you would also need to spin the engine really fast to keep the turbos from going into surge. We are talking way over 4000 RPM.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

Diesel Freak



If you still want to use the parallel HY's for the cool factor, you will need a turbo that is larger that the Garrett T-100 which moves 1. 36kg/sec of air. What kind of CFM does this mean to me, how about a 106mm... . your talking over my head.



BOTW a PDR HX-40 and a PDR HT3B are just plain stupid together so I see your point, what about a 91mm at the big turbo... ... this exspensive stuff here folks... . try 3 grand for a turbo.



Jim