Truck "Making" Oil

[AH64ID]

A quick update for anyone that likes data and numbers like I do, and since I have nothing else to do now but wait for the truck to break down and throw a code. I crunched some data.

Many here have suggested that an aftermarket cai will cause more frequent regens. I have some interesting data for that.

7 regen cycles with the Banks cai that was on the truck it averaged 184 miles between regens
7 cycles after putting the factory intake and filter back on it averaged 142 miles between regens

So on average it went into regen 41 miles SOONER every cycle with the factory intake.

There are definitely filters that increase regen frequency, even the wrong OEM filter has been known to increase regen frequency. You did use the orange filter, correct?

With the soot in your tailpipe you clearly have a DPF issue, which is likely what’s causing all this.

 

[Pizzamaker991]

You did use the orange filter, correct?

With the soot in your tailpipe you clearly have a DPF issue, which is likely what’s causing all this.

Yes, the oem orange rimmed filter that came on the truck, I took it off originally at 1,500 miles and put the cai on.

I agree that it appears there is an issue with the dpf, but can’t seem to convince a dealer that it’s a problem. I’m tired of hearing “if there are no codes there is no problem.”

The thing that really bothers me as we come into fall and winter, I am a 1 guy 1 truck plow company along with my day job. If this truck goes down I’m gonna go broke paying another contractor to pick up my work.

Stuff happens, but a breakdown that is completely preventable and happens because the dealer(s) are refusing to acknowledge an issue is just unacceptable.

 

[bcbender]

I’m tired of hearing “if there are no codes there is no problem.”

Sadly that is the state of things these days... When my truck was only 6mo old and 5k miles on it, on my trip out west with my camper it actually threw a code for low boost... I went to three different dealers each of them re-set the MIL and said to keep driving it until it stops. Each time an hour or so away from the dealer it would re-illuminate the MIL.. same code.. until it did stop pulling 20miles east of Billings.... Thankfully the service dept in Billings knew what to do and replaced the faulty EGR valve and its been good since... It seems that many techs rely too much (or FCA) on the MIL and do not know common sense trouble shooting anymore... If the computer doesnt say its broke it aint!!

 

[Ozymandias]

And by far not every Code also sets the MIL.
Most codes are silent and only show up on the wiTech to inform the technican at the service bay that something needs attention.
Only urgent codes that need immediate attention light the MIL.

 

[AH64ID]

Not all physical physical failures will set a code, the techs should know that.

 

[bcbender]

For the 19+ trucks be sure to use the 53034051AB filter.

I wanted to confirm before I asked...

I have 2 of these filters I mistakenly purchased when I still had my 04.. Didn't realize they were the wrong one until I put tried to put one in and it didn't fit (04 truck).. My question is what is the lifespan on a air filter.. I've had these since 2018 and was going to swap one in but don't need to risk any damage if they are "old"... They have been in my cabinet with the other oils and filters for my vehicles as I always keep oil and filters on hand for everything so as not to have to find one when I need it.

 

[AH64ID]

I wanted to confirm before I asked...

I have 2 of these filters I mistakenly purchased when I still had my 04.. Didn't realize they were the wrong one until I put tried to put one in and it didn't fit (04 truck).. My question is what is the lifespan on a air filter.. I've had these since 2018 and was going to swap one in but don't need to risk any damage if they are "old"... They have been in my cabinet with the other oils and filters for my vehicles as I always keep oil and filters on hand for everything so as not to have to find one when I need it.

If they have been kept dry they should be fine.

 

[bcbender]

yep.. Dry and still in the OEM bags... Thanks!

 

[Ozymandias]

But I wouldn't keep them any longer, the foam and the glue holding them together deteriorates just by aging.
There was a thread here at the forum about that topic but a long time ago.
Shelf life of filters is limited, one wouldn't believe that.

 

[bcbender]

Well.. looks like the pkg data from Mopar was 07/05/2018... so that'd make them 5y old... Not sure what the shelf life is, Id assume I am ok to use at least one.. maybe give the other away because I wont hit the next interval soon at my current drive / usage rate. They have been stored in my shop not exposed to sunlight etc...

 

[Pizzamaker991]

**UPDATE**
After becoming completely dissatisfied with the service by any of my local dealers I made the decision to take the truck to an independent heavy truck shop. I sat with the service manager and the lead tech and went over every bit of the data that I have been gathering. Both agreed that there is clearly an issue with the truck and were willing to dig in.

Every temp sensor in the doc dpf scr was ohmed out, the pm sensor was cleaned and the differential pressure sensors were tested along with the tubing for the sensors being checked for plugging. I drove it for a couple weeks continuing to monitor the regen frequency and oil level. NO CHANGE. I took it back provided the data I collected during the test and they went back to work.

After more testing, and multiple stationary regens while monitoring the performance it was determined that the dpf was over 70% restricted. They recommended replacing the doc/dpf assembly and an oil change. I gave them the go ahead.

The truck was returned to me after the replacement, huge performance change, noticeably more power, and after a few days I noticed the fuel mileage up from the 12.5mpg before to 15mpg after. It went over 450 miles without going into regen.

The oil level issue was confirmed to be a symptom of the frequent regens, as the level has not risen at all in 862 miles since the dpf replacement.

The lead tech told me that this is an unfortunate occurrence with all of these trucks / engines, says the emissions systems have destroyed the diesel market. He told me that unless you are going to tow a few thousand pounds 60-70% of the time, this will happen again. That for people like me that don't use it hard enough, its not worth buying a diesel anymore because of the problems it causes.

Anyway, all things repaired and a bill just north of $4,000; I contacted my attorney, who drew up a letter to send to my dealership and to stellantis seeking reimbursement . He is also sending a letter to the epa office that oversees the federal emissions warranty program to make them aware of the problems I have had and the way both the dealers and stellantis have handled the situation. He says they will likely make good on the bill without a lawsuit.

I can say one thing after all of this, in another 35k miles and this happens again; if I still own the truck, it is gonna get deleted.

 

[AH64ID]

**UPDATE**
After becoming completely dissatisfied with the service by any of my local dealers I made the decision to take the truck to an independent heavy truck shop. I sat with the service manager and the lead tech and went over every bit of the data that I have been gathering. Both agreed that there is clearly an issue with the truck and were willing to dig in.

Every temp sensor in the doc dpf scr was ohmed out, the pm sensor was cleaned and the differential pressure sensors were tested along with the tubing for the sensors being checked for plugging. I drove it for a couple weeks continuing to monitor the regen frequency and oil level. NO CHANGE. I took it back provided the data I collected during the test and they went back to work.

After more testing, and multiple stationary regens while monitoring the performance it was determined that the dpf was over 70% restricted. They recommended replacing the doc/dpf assembly and an oil change. I gave them the go ahead.

The truck was returned to me after the replacement, huge performance change, noticeably more power, and after a few days I noticed the fuel mileage up from the 12.5mpg before to 15mpg after. It went over 450 miles without going into regen.

The oil level issue was confirmed to be a symptom of the frequent regens, as the level has not risen at all in 862 miles since the dpf replacement.

The lead tech told me that this is an unfortunate occurrence with all of these trucks / engines, says the emissions systems have destroyed the diesel market. He told me that unless you are going to tow a few thousand pounds 60-70% of the time, this will happen again. That for people like me that don't use it hard enough, its not worth buying a diesel anymore because of the problems it causes.

Anyway, all things repaired and a bill just north of $4,000; I contacted my attorney, who drew up a letter to send to my dealership and to stellantis seeking reimbursement . He is also sending a letter to the epa office that oversees the federal emissions warranty program to make them aware of the problems I have had and the way both the dealers and stellantis have handled the situation. He says they will likely make good on the bill without a lawsuit.

I can say one thing after all of this, in another 35k miles and this happens again; if I still own the truck, it is gonna get deleted.

View attachment 138783

Hopefully it goes well with Stellantis, and hopefully your issue is fixed and the DPF was the issue and not something with the engine causing the DPF to plug.

 

[Pizzamaker991]

Hopefully it goes well with Stellantis, and hopefully your issue is fixed and the DPF was the issue and not something with the engine causing the DPF to plug.

I believe all is well, the tech told me this is a very common problem not just with the ram trucks, but also with the 6.7 in school buses. Any extra idle time or light load makes them soot up and clog the dpf.

He says Cummins sets all these up to run on the rich side with the intent of building heat in the doc and dpf, to mitigate sooting. However when lightly loaded or idling it makes it worse, creating more soot.

 

[AH64ID]

I believe all is well, the tech told me this is a very common problem not just with the ram trucks, but also with the 6.7 in school buses. Any extra idle time or light load makes them soot up and clog the dpf.

He says Cummins sets all these up to run on the rich side with the intent of building heat in the doc and dpf, to mitigate sooting. However when lightly loaded or idling it makes it worse, creating more soot.

Yes they soot up and load the DPF, but should also be capable of cleaning the DPF from it. I've just seen dealerships throw DPF's at similar issues and it's not the problem, just a result of the problem.

Running rich actually would run cooler and make more soot, think about a sled puller (extreme, but relevant). Lean would be hotter. Diesels also run a variable air:fuel ratio that isn't controlled like on a gas engine.

 

[Pizzamaker991]

Running rich actually would run cooler and make more soot, think about a sled puller (extreme, but relevant). Lean would be hotter. Diesels also run a variable air:fuel ratio that isn't controlled like on a gas engine.

You are 100% correct, and by my understanding rich does run cooler at the engine which helps reduce the nox emissions, but rich means a hotter doc / dpf because the extra fuel reacts in the doc so more fuel=more heat. So in theory that combination means that under light load conditions the motor is running cooler making large amounts of soot, but not getting the downstream components hot enough to burn it off, hence the need to do active regen.

Over time as the soot is burned off in the dpf it leaves some ash behind and after a period of time it becomes too full of ash which can't be burned off and becomes clogged. Which is why he said people like me that don't work the trucks hard enough cause this to happen more often, and in the case of our trucks means replacement of the dpf assembly. Where on semi trucks they can be removed and cleaned as a normal service.

I can definitely say that being around the heavy truck guys that aren't afraid to give pointers and teach has been great. I love to learn from people's experiences and gain knowledge for future use.

As far as dealerships, I think it would go a long way if they took the time to sit with the customer and teach them and share information instead of just jumping on the blame train.

 

[BigPapa]

Just for reference, we have over 600 active 6.7 Cummins powered school buses. Since first of the year, we've had 10 ATD's (DPF's & DOC's) cleaned and we've had to replace two.

 

[AH64ID]

The DOC reacts to unburnt fuel, not a “rich” diesel mixture. This can be seen by lack of EGT increase thru the DOC in all driving conditions except an active regen. These are temps I monitor with my CTS3.

 

[Pizzamaker991]

The DOC reacts to unburnt fuel, not a “rich” diesel mixture. This can be seen by lack of EGT increase thru the DOC in all driving conditions except an active regen. These are temps I monitor with my CTS3.

Ahh so in simpler terms,
rich + light load = low egt’s and more soot and more regens

rich + heavy load = higher egt’s and more soot burned so fewer regens

 

[AH64ID]

Ahh so in simpler terms,
rich + light load = low egt’s and more soot and more regens

rich + heavy load = higher egt’s and more soot burned so fewer regens

Stop thinking about rich so much, it's not a gas engine. Your mechanic really shouldn't have talked about it like that. Cummins likely tuned the engine to run as clean as possible to reduce soot/PM loading, not plug the DPF faster.

Light load driving = low EGT's, this reduces passive regeneration in the DPF. This means that soot/PM is accumulated in the DPF and must be cleaned with an active regeneration, either every 24 hours or when the soot loading reaches ~45%. As soot is accumulated and burned a very small portion of it turns to ash.

High load driving = higher EGT's. Higher EGT's means more passive regen, but you still get small amount of ash built up. You still get the 24 hour regen even if passive regen keeps the DPF clean.

It's possible the engine also is making more soot at high loads than with a light load. I'd be really curios see how clean a 100% stock with delete tune runs at different loads. You don't see it on the DPF gauge because passive regen keeps the DPF clean.


For your sake I really hope you just had a bad DPF, but a plugged DPF from ash buildup in 35K miles isn't normal (unless the wrong oil spec was used, or the truck is consuming oil). Light driving means you've averaged less fuel burned, so you should have less total soot/PM accumulation over someone who has burned twice the fuel you have in the same number of miles. It's the cleaning of the DPF that leaves the ash deposit, regardless of an active or passive regen. Active regens do get the DPF cleaner than passive regens due to the increased temperature, which is why there is a 24 hour regen max interval.

 

[Ozymandias]

A Diesel almost always runs "lean" because you have free air inrush but only as much fuel that is actually needed for the work to be done.
You can not burn more or less fuel to do a certain amount of work.
Totally different from a gas engine with the throttle valve and the fuel injection that can make a fuel/air ratio lean or rich.

Same reason for the very bad engine braking of a diesel engine that hasn't an EB fitted to it.