TST twins or TST regular?

[Big P]

If you had to do it over, which program would you go with? My truck is currently stock, but I want a box that I can grow into. I see people complain about the fact that the standard program doesn't start fueling until 12psi. Is the twins program that much stronger on the bottom end? I'm looking for some feedback before I buy. It's between the TST and the Hot Juice. My brother-in-law is running the Hot Juice, and I've got to say, it feels strong, smooth, and so far no problems. Help me pick! :{

 

[SRadke]

No way I would get the twins program with a stock turbo. I tried it for a weekend and 3 days was too long. I'm using it now with the twins to get them rolling but I wished I had the smoothness of the other program.



-Scott

 

[Big P]

Was it just too aggressive on the bottom? Even on settings below 4/4? I guess I just don't want it to feel "lazy" on the bottom. I got used to my 02 with a catcher.

 

[SRadke]

Much too agressive on the bottom for a stock turbo. The standard flash does not feel "lazy" with a stock turbo, it ramps up just about right. Don't believe the fueling doesn't start until 12 psi, it actually starts before that, closer to 4 psi. The diffrence is that the twins program is full on 100% at 12 psi where the standard program ramps up to the high 20's.

 

[driverno8]

I did the twins program for a month of so. With all the stuff done to my truck I couldn't do 4/4 as a daily driver. Got hot way to fast and blew a ton of smoke. I will say it towed a LOT better (I tow on 4/2, either program). Even the wife commented on much easier the truck felt pulling. I can understand the thought behind it and can see where the twins program would be great, if you had twins. But with a single it wasn't for me. I sent it back to have the standard program put back in. I can run 7/6 all day and not see 1500*. Couldn't do that witht the twins program. I say go the TST. They'll work with you on what program is best for you. You can send it in when ever you want and try different things.

 

[JCleary]

I have the regular program and ended up stacking with the BDDL to get some low end. You have an auto, so I don't think it will be such a big deal for you to go with the standard program.



I wish I had the twins flash. I'll get it done when I get the SPS66 installed.

 

[BILLUA]

I also, had the single program, but was looking for more low end kick... I sent the TST out to get the twins upgrade... In the mean time, I bought a EDGE EZ from Diesel Dynamics. . Thanks Keith! And that got the low end woken up!



Now, I get the TST back with the twins program... I only drive my truck on 4x4 as I still have a stock auto... With the box on 4x4 with the twins programs, it really pulls hard... Yes, it does smoke...



Yesterday, I towed about 7k from LAS to SFO and back... I have to say, I do not like towing with the twins program... A ton of smoke between 10-20 lbs of boost ( normal towing boost with a little elevation change). Also, I figure the twins program cost me about 2. 5 mpg... Remember, black smoke is wasted fuel mpg wise. .



So, to answer your question: If you are going to be towing, I would stick with the stock TST... If you want to play and don't care about smoke, get the twins program!

 

[Morse]

2. 5 MPG loss. . Ouch...

 

[JStieger]

If you had to do it over, which program would you go with?

I never ran the TST regular with a stock turbo, but did with a slightly bigger HTB2 62/12. When it didn't have all the codes and wonky fuel timing issues, it ran great. When stacked with a low end pressure box, like the VAC3. 1, it did even better on the low end even though as Tomeygun recently found it suffered on the high end due to the VA programming-for-the-towing crowd. After getting the run around from TST (like others on this board have with early '03 HO) I said screw it and sold it.



Then I went injectors w/ VA box, then DD TTPM, then Edge Juice. All served me extremely well, with awesome customer service after the sale, but I still secretly missed the multiple adjustability of the TST. Then AK Ram posted on DTR that the mother-of-all TST programs was becoming "officially" available again - the "03 Twins Program". It was the program that has the least amount of code and driveability issues. So I bought it 2 months ago and haven't been happier - no more codes like I had last time (knock on wood!).



In the meantime, I hooked up a rail pressure gauge and started seeing low pressure issues with injectors + any duration box. So a lot of research and PMs later, I ended up with a TS MP-8 (new Ramifier) with infinite adjustability. It has the awesome low end feel of the VA, but doesn't peter out on the high end unless the rail is drained. I figured that with bigger injectors + aggressive pressure box, I would have to worry less about high rail pressures anyway.



So what do I normally run on? 40-50% MP8 & 1x0 (timing only) on the TST. I do this mainly to keep the fuel atomized plus get the advanced injection timing benefits. The MP8 even by itself is awesome.



What's the most I've dared to run on? same 40-50% MP8, but 4x4 on the TST. This combo flat out scares me. It is so violently aggressive that I can't comprehend fast enough what is happening via the gauges except to hold on the wheel. What's even more scarier is that it looks like I might have a hair bit more rail pressure left. What's even, even more scarier is what if there was a high pressure pump capable to support the remaining 5x5 levels?



I can't wait to dyno this...



Anyhow, to answer your question, for a stock truck the regular TST with some mods will give you the most useable adjustability in terms of all the various permutations of 9x9. However, just do a search on here when the 03 TST first came out (the "Twins" program) and you'll find tons of posts about people popping stock turbos as well as even some aftermarket ones.

 

[driverno8]

I forgot to mention the "Twins Program" I ran was the "Old Twins". I pm'd back and forth with Tommygun for awhile and it looked like that was going to be the way to go because of the HTB2. I guess the "Old" version fuels a little quicker then the "New" twins. I haven't tried the new twins version. Just thought I'd clarify that. Sorry for any misleading.



I am stacked with an EZ so the low end is handled. My truck is just so much quicker with the standard program then it was with the twins version.

 

[SRadke]

The twins program will tow nicely but you have to turn your "Te" down (I use 2) and leave the "hp" up to get the overall power boost. This moves the power up in the powerband and doesn't torque on the light duty parts of your drivetrain so bad, just keep your rpm's up. With my setup I tow on 4:2 (hp/Te) with the old twins program, often over 25,000 gross weight, and I've never seen over 1200° pre turbo.



-Scott

 

[JVolpe]

Seems to me the only was to know for sure is the try both on the same vehicle without changing anything else. I have tried a bunch of boxes and downloaders, and their performance on my truck in a lot of cases is not the same as others with comperable setups.



I currently have the new TST R49 with twins program. I have had some good and very good results by stacking an EZ and the BDDL downloader programs. But I would still like to know if the standard TST program would do better with my current setup.



I am running right now with TST 2/1, EZ level 1 and BDDL Performance program loaded. With this combo I average about 15mpg city(stop and go) and 18-19mpg highway at 74mph. Not much smoke at all normal driving, I can lug it and leave a pretty good cloud if I want, but not normally. EGTs no problem with this combo daily driving or light towing.



At the track with TST 7/6, EZ level 3 and same BDDL I will see 1550* through 3rd gear locked up and 1700* by the end of the 1/4 in OD for a second or two.



If it was not such a PITA to remove the cam/crank sensors I would probably try the standard TST programming. But because I am lazy I will probably just try to add more fuel(injectors) and air(twins) and maybe drugs(No2) to catch up with the programming stacks.

 

[BILLUA]

Scott, I tried knocking the TST down to 4x2 then 2x2 and still had smoke... Egt's were lower by about 100 degrees... I also kicked the EZ down to setting 1... Unless our trucks are setup identical, results will of course vary... I am going to go back to the single program for the mpg advantage...



As an aside, the BDDL set on performance with the EZ on setting 2 was an awesome stack, no smoke, great power and no egt problems... I did not however tow with this combo... I did not keep this stack as I really don't like messing with ECM code. .

 

[SRadke]

Scott, I tried knocking the TST down to 4x2 then 2x2 and still had smoke... Egt's were lower by about 100 degrees... I also kicked the EZ down to setting 1... Unless our trucks are setup identical, results will of course vary... I am going to go back to the single program for the mpg advantage...

Results will vary there is no doubt about that. I run no pressure when towing and have no smoke. If I still had a stock turbo I'd say that 4:2 would probably be too much fuel for towing. I didn't run this program very long with the stock turbo but I remember smoke through the entire rpm range on setting 4. I suspect the egt's could get out of hand as well. FWIW I didn't notice an mpg change between the two programs while highway driving, playing around on the other hand.....



-Scott

 

[driverno8]

I tow religiously on TST 4/2 & EZ 1. Seems to work great for me for what ever I'm towing. Very little smoke and plenty of power to get out of my own way. I can climb 6% grades with my tt on the back (8500lbs) and never see 1200*. All that at 70mph. BTW: the last time I dynoed I did a run with this setting to see what type of numbers I had when I tow. I layed down 372hp w/ 725lbs. Not bad for my TOW settings. Espeically since it's an SO. Once I get off the freeway I do run 4/4 to help get me going a bit. But 4/2 & EZ 1 works great towing for me. I also average about 16mpg (hand calculated) with the setting and my trailer.

 

[chrleb1]

You know that you can make the regular TST act like the twins TST, just some mine wiring tricks. Its easy and fun to have full fuel at bottom end.

 

[SRadke]

You know that you can make the regular TST act like the twins TST, just some mine wiring tricks. Its easy and fun to have full fuel at bottom end.

I've done that. It has advantages and disadvantages. I like to be able to leave the settings up higher and drive without the smoke. It has it's place, just not all the time.

 

[Big P]

Thank you for all the great information. I think I will stay with the standard program while I am still running the stock turbo. I don't think it will take too much fuel down low to spool it. :-laf From what I am reading, it doesn't seem like the stock turbo has the exhaust flow, cooling ability, or even strong enough to reliably handle 100% fuel by 12psi. My time will come for a big turbo, and when that day comes, maybe the twins program will go in.



Also, about the wastegate mod for the "600" engines. I assume this is to create more boost? Is it necessary to do this mod? Realistically, the stock turbo probably shouldn't even be used for this box over 4x4, so at this point does more boost even matter? I'm sure just leaving the stock electronic boost valve connected, the box would create more exhaust volume than it could handle at stock levels. So you would probably get more boost anyway. Or would it not respond correctly because the TST is boost fooling the stock ecm?

 

[RMalone]

I think TST's wastegate mod actually helps protect the stock turbo.

 

[SRadke]

I'm not sure about the electronic wastegates of 04. 5 and up but with the older ones the stock elbow will give your turbo better chances if surviving the high settings.