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twin turbo's
- Thread starter f.boyle
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I understand there are a number of people doing this rather quietly. I'm interested, and have discussed it in depth with some NW Bombers, and we're still in the "working out the details" stage. HDM48 and I are interested in dual parallel turbos, instead of the common series setup.
First gen engines can't get a LOT of fuel, like you can with a P7100. Instead, to achieve maximum horsepower available, you need to be able to burn all the fuel as well as possible, and reduce parasitic losses as much as possible.
Since one of the large parasitic losses is developing many PSI boost, it would be more effective to find ways of achieving sufficient airflow with lower boost.
My idea is to use the Piers camshaft, two smaller, wastegated (wastegate is very important here... the idea is to have as little restriction to exhaust flow as possible) turbos, strong airflow improvements to the head, intake and exhaust ports, and perhaps intercooler as well.
Also, in this mix, is changing the valve springs, and re-working the injection pump with a new governor setup for 3400 rpm, more advance in the pump to maintain efficient fuel burn at 3400, and running low boost numbers - probably not over 20 psi, while shooting for 300 to 350 HP at the rear wheels.
Just the increase in RPM, reduction of losses due to breathing difficulties, and improvement in timing, without turning up anything - should raise my truck from 217 HP to more like 290 horsepower.
With the improved airflow, I should be able to then turn up the pump, and make well over 300 HP, with NO smoke and egt being very manageable.
Before you comment on this, you need to realize that this idea is NOT conventional. It is, to be blunt, totally different thinking from what has been propelling much of the horsepower race so far. What's been happening, is that using injectors, pump mods, or electronics or any combination of them has been used to cram more fuel in, and then finding ways of cramming sufficient air through to burn it.
This is almost solely an effort to increase efficiency of the engine, reduce parasitic losses, to release the limited power that exists due to the the limited amount of fuel available.
First gen engines can't get a LOT of fuel, like you can with a P7100. Instead, to achieve maximum horsepower available, you need to be able to burn all the fuel as well as possible, and reduce parasitic losses as much as possible.
Since one of the large parasitic losses is developing many PSI boost, it would be more effective to find ways of achieving sufficient airflow with lower boost.
My idea is to use the Piers camshaft, two smaller, wastegated (wastegate is very important here... the idea is to have as little restriction to exhaust flow as possible) turbos, strong airflow improvements to the head, intake and exhaust ports, and perhaps intercooler as well.
Also, in this mix, is changing the valve springs, and re-working the injection pump with a new governor setup for 3400 rpm, more advance in the pump to maintain efficient fuel burn at 3400, and running low boost numbers - probably not over 20 psi, while shooting for 300 to 350 HP at the rear wheels.
Just the increase in RPM, reduction of losses due to breathing difficulties, and improvement in timing, without turning up anything - should raise my truck from 217 HP to more like 290 horsepower.
With the improved airflow, I should be able to then turn up the pump, and make well over 300 HP, with NO smoke and egt being very manageable.
Before you comment on this, you need to realize that this idea is NOT conventional. It is, to be blunt, totally different thinking from what has been propelling much of the horsepower race so far. What's been happening, is that using injectors, pump mods, or electronics or any combination of them has been used to cram more fuel in, and then finding ways of cramming sufficient air through to burn it.
This is almost solely an effort to increase efficiency of the engine, reduce parasitic losses, to release the limited power that exists due to the the limited amount of fuel available.
Those are some interesting thoughts on some mods. PW
It might work if you could figure a way of stopping cross flow from one turbo to an the other. What I mean by cross flow is both turbos some where along the line will have to be hooked into the same area to feed the engine. Whether it is the intake or the intercooler. If one turbo makes boost faster than the other one. It would bleed into the weaker turbo and stop it from spooling up as fast. Or not spool up near what it can put out.
But the basic idea sounds interesting. HHHMMM a couple of smaller turbo's off of some type of ricer car around 3. 0 liter engine, custom tube headers. Then head porting. Might make a lively package to play with. :--)
Wish I lived a little closer. It would be fun to help set up something like that. I like to fabricate.
It might work if you could figure a way of stopping cross flow from one turbo to an the other. What I mean by cross flow is both turbos some where along the line will have to be hooked into the same area to feed the engine. Whether it is the intake or the intercooler. If one turbo makes boost faster than the other one. It would bleed into the weaker turbo and stop it from spooling up as fast. Or not spool up near what it can put out.
But the basic idea sounds interesting. HHHMMM a couple of smaller turbo's off of some type of ricer car around 3. 0 liter engine, custom tube headers. Then head porting. Might make a lively package to play with. :--)
Wish I lived a little closer. It would be fun to help set up something like that. I like to fabricate.
We're talking about 25-30% more rpm than stock. Add that, and perhaps 10-20%% more airflow than normal for a given rpm, and it appears that a pair of 9CM HY's off an ISB just might work. No great boost would be needed to get power, since at 2-5 PSI, you'd have most of the airflow you had with 10 PSI boost before.
Although the boost curve would be relatively weak from idle up to 2000, the ability to get airflow ANYWAY and burn fuel, will dramatically help spool the turbos. It will simply act like a larger displacement engine. 10% more airflow AND 10% more fuel will add considerably to the ability to spool the turbo.
The higher rpm is the part I don't like the sound of to much. With the heavey bottom ends of our diesels. At what rpm are you going to get into crank whip and other bottom end problems from the extra rpm?
This doesn't even address the heavy valve train. The springs would be a start. But is this rpm range getting close to the valve float level from the heavy weight valve train?
The 9cm's might work. But with the smaller gasser turbo's they would come in faster. Then you could waste gate the intake pipe for to the PSI you wanted. The total air volume wouldn't be that much different I think from a pair 3. 0 gasser turbo's. The Dodge Talon turbo rigs put out 14 to 16 psi on a single turbo for a engine half the size of ours with a 8,000 red line. (They hit the waste gate around 4,000 rpm most of the time). This is the early models. The later ones had twin turbo's.
I would hate to think of the cost of a pair of 9cm's. WOW sticker shock. A pair of used 3. 0 litre gassers would be cheaper to experiment with. Unless you already have a pair of 9cm's laying around.
It would be interesting to see the results no matter which turbo's were used.
This doesn't even address the heavy valve train. The springs would be a start. But is this rpm range getting close to the valve float level from the heavy weight valve train?
The 9cm's might work. But with the smaller gasser turbo's they would come in faster. Then you could waste gate the intake pipe for to the PSI you wanted. The total air volume wouldn't be that much different I think from a pair 3. 0 gasser turbo's. The Dodge Talon turbo rigs put out 14 to 16 psi on a single turbo for a engine half the size of ours with a 8,000 red line. (They hit the waste gate around 4,000 rpm most of the time). This is the early models. The later ones had twin turbo's.
I would hate to think of the cost of a pair of 9cm's. WOW sticker shock. A pair of used 3. 0 litre gassers would be cheaper to experiment with. Unless you already have a pair of 9cm's laying around.
It would be interesting to see the results no matter which turbo's were used.
ISB's, with the same basic bottom end as ours, run 3400.
I'm under the impression the new ISBe turns 3600.
I have no reason to believe that running occaisionally to 3400 will have any detrimental effects on engine life.
You're going to cruise the same rpm you did before, rarely exceed 2500 normal driving... and use that extra RPM for when you want the higher HP.
I've got an auto, and in my situation, only manual shifting will get the rpm's that high. Although I fully intend to alter the shifting speeds, it would not be very much.
Putting in the heavier valve springs is sufficient to past 4000. Been done, tried, and proven.
Why the 9CM HY's? Cheap. People upgrade their auto-equipped ISB's regularly... and a couple of them used can't be all that expensive.
I do not know if there is, but if there's a wastegated 9 for the HX35, that's even better - as far as money goes. HX35's are cheap - especially used.
Now, there's a reason I'm interested in the parallel HX's, and that's flow. 2 hx 35's can flow 2X as much air at 10 psi, as one @10 psi. I'm looking to try to flow as much as possible, with as little boost as possible, ergo, the attempt, using twins, to be able to flow a LOT of air at low boost pressures, while maintaining very low drive pressure at the exhaust.
Low drive pressure equals much better scavenging, much lower EGT (because of that), lower smoke output, along with far less wasted power, from the piston not needing to force itself up against high pressure in the exhaust system.
It's just an idea... and I don't know if it'll work. I don't have enough theoretical knowledge to engineer this. But, I have a reasonable feel for such things, and this one "feels" right.
Besides, who else in the 1st gen crowd has come up with a plan to possibly exceed 350 rwhp?
I'm under the impression the new ISBe turns 3600.
I have no reason to believe that running occaisionally to 3400 will have any detrimental effects on engine life.
You're going to cruise the same rpm you did before, rarely exceed 2500 normal driving... and use that extra RPM for when you want the higher HP.
I've got an auto, and in my situation, only manual shifting will get the rpm's that high. Although I fully intend to alter the shifting speeds, it would not be very much.
Putting in the heavier valve springs is sufficient to past 4000. Been done, tried, and proven.
Why the 9CM HY's? Cheap. People upgrade their auto-equipped ISB's regularly... and a couple of them used can't be all that expensive.
I do not know if there is, but if there's a wastegated 9 for the HX35, that's even better - as far as money goes. HX35's are cheap - especially used.
Now, there's a reason I'm interested in the parallel HX's, and that's flow. 2 hx 35's can flow 2X as much air at 10 psi, as one @10 psi. I'm looking to try to flow as much as possible, with as little boost as possible, ergo, the attempt, using twins, to be able to flow a LOT of air at low boost pressures, while maintaining very low drive pressure at the exhaust.
Low drive pressure equals much better scavenging, much lower EGT (because of that), lower smoke output, along with far less wasted power, from the piston not needing to force itself up against high pressure in the exhaust system.
It's just an idea... and I don't know if it'll work. I don't have enough theoretical knowledge to engineer this. But, I have a reasonable feel for such things, and this one "feels" right.
Besides, who else in the 1st gen crowd has come up with a plan to possibly exceed 350 rwhp?
Not me
I couldn't afford to. But it would be fun to try. A diesel is one of the few engines I haven't blown up in all my years of playing.
But I have driven a few that needed blown up. They were a hazzard on the road. Under powered/worn out. They would smell a hill 2 miles away and start slowing down. :{
Originally posted by Philip
Not me
I couldn't afford to. But it would be fun to try. A diesel is one of the few engines I haven't blown up in all my years of playing.
I can't afford to pay attention, much less actually DO anything right now.
Sponsors would be nice
HINT HINT
OK, time for me to jump in.
I have been researching this dual parallel turbo thing for some time now and I will get writers cramp if I try to post it all here. But, here are a few things in regards to the questions posted here.
I am not concerned with 'bleed-over'. Each turbo is independently driven. If there is a issue with equal pressure the turbo's will ballance themselfs.
Spool-up is an issue to be fine-tuned, but, with smaller housings this might be avoided. I'm even concidering using two unequal sized housings. Crankshaft harmonics might be a limiting factor here.
Mark is right about two turbo's making the same amount of boost flowing twice the amount of exhaust. This is where most of the extra horsepower will be made. It's already there, I'll just let it out.
The extra rpm is not an issue either. These engines can safely maintain 3400rpm, and while under power it will not freewheel.
Valve springs for higher rpm are a must. Pump timing is somthing to be investigated.
One thing, as the rpm's go up, the hp increases and the torque decreases. That way it will rev quicker and not shock the drivetrain when it shifts. Remember, hp makes it rev and torque keeps it there. So even if the guy next to you has more torque than you , you can still beat him in a drag race because you can rev quicker.
One thing to keep in mind, this is an experiment. There are no rules written. It should work in theory. I have been racing and building race motors for 35 years and I know there is a chance this could be an effort in futility.
But if it works,, watch out!!
I have a saying that I've been saying for 20 years,
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER
I'll keep posting as things progress
-adve-
I have been researching this dual parallel turbo thing for some time now and I will get writers cramp if I try to post it all here. But, here are a few things in regards to the questions posted here.
I am not concerned with 'bleed-over'. Each turbo is independently driven. If there is a issue with equal pressure the turbo's will ballance themselfs.
Spool-up is an issue to be fine-tuned, but, with smaller housings this might be avoided. I'm even concidering using two unequal sized housings. Crankshaft harmonics might be a limiting factor here.
Mark is right about two turbo's making the same amount of boost flowing twice the amount of exhaust. This is where most of the extra horsepower will be made. It's already there, I'll just let it out.
The extra rpm is not an issue either. These engines can safely maintain 3400rpm, and while under power it will not freewheel.
Valve springs for higher rpm are a must. Pump timing is somthing to be investigated.
One thing, as the rpm's go up, the hp increases and the torque decreases. That way it will rev quicker and not shock the drivetrain when it shifts. Remember, hp makes it rev and torque keeps it there. So even if the guy next to you has more torque than you , you can still beat him in a drag race because you can rev quicker.
One thing to keep in mind, this is an experiment. There are no rules written. It should work in theory. I have been racing and building race motors for 35 years and I know there is a chance this could be an effort in futility.
But if it works,, watch out!!
I have a saying that I've been saying for 20 years,
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS TOO MUCH HORSEPOWER
I'll keep posting as things progress
-adve-
I have built many engines also. But a diesel isn't one of them. I also have a little experience with a turbo on a gas engine. Nothing with twins or parrellel's.
I didn't know they had turned the ISB's up to 3400 rpm.
I'll talk to my brother in law and see if his ISBe model is 3400 or 3600 rpm on the governers.
I didn't know they had turned the ISB's up to 3400 rpm.
I'll talk to my brother in law and see if his ISBe model is 3400 or 3600 rpm on the governers.
Air In, Air Out
Hi Guys,
I have enjoyed watching this discussion. I have talked about it a few times with a mechanic friend of mine. This past winter I even added a turbo to a tractor, so I have lots of interest in adding and tweaking with turbos. My thoughts would be add an intercooler from a 2nd gen or a Banks that is 150% the size of the OEM intercooler. I would also add a Banks twin ram intake. It can be done and Rick C. has done it on his 93 D-350. He said it gained him between 1 and 2 pounds of boost. It seems tyo me that the air would be more evenly distributed to all cylinders. I would also polish and clean up the intake pleunum (sp?). As for mounting the twins, I would like to try the mid sections from an ATS manifold for two reasons. The first being less restriction, and the second being that it might (research money is nill to none right now) just bolt up and the ends could be capped off. If I had the luxury of building the engine from scratch, I would get it balanced for the 3400 rpm. It would help the engine last longer and you would have a few more hp from the engine not "fighting itself". A ported head, 60 lb valve springs, and new style cam are a must. I will leave the pump work to Power Wagon. What do you guys think?
Jeremy
BTW, Phil where in Indiana are you from? I am originally from Wabash, but am now in Lafayette.
Hi Guys,
I have enjoyed watching this discussion. I have talked about it a few times with a mechanic friend of mine. This past winter I even added a turbo to a tractor, so I have lots of interest in adding and tweaking with turbos. My thoughts would be add an intercooler from a 2nd gen or a Banks that is 150% the size of the OEM intercooler. I would also add a Banks twin ram intake. It can be done and Rick C. has done it on his 93 D-350. He said it gained him between 1 and 2 pounds of boost. It seems tyo me that the air would be more evenly distributed to all cylinders. I would also polish and clean up the intake pleunum (sp?). As for mounting the twins, I would like to try the mid sections from an ATS manifold for two reasons. The first being less restriction, and the second being that it might (research money is nill to none right now) just bolt up and the ends could be capped off. If I had the luxury of building the engine from scratch, I would get it balanced for the 3400 rpm. It would help the engine last longer and you would have a few more hp from the engine not "fighting itself". A ported head, 60 lb valve springs, and new style cam are a must. I will leave the pump work to Power Wagon. What do you guys think?
Jeremy
BTW, Phil where in Indiana are you from? I am originally from Wabash, but am now in Lafayette.
I think if I were going to try twin turbo's. I would build a set of headers myself. (Cheap fast experiment). Then you could locate the turbo's better for exhaust and intake piping. Just wrap them up good with thermal wrap and they should do all right.
Also support the turbo's with brackets to keep them from dropping when the are glowing.
If headers can hold up to 1600 degree exhaust from a Gasser in full throttle use. It should hold on the diesel at 1200 degree. I wonder what type of header ringing a diesel would have compared to a Gasser.
Case500D you talked about doing what is called an over balance. It is all right for a engine that is going to run at a set rpm all the time. But for every day use, you would see vibration from the engine whenever it was running below the balance rpm. I used this trick for stock car engines. I had mine balanced for 8,000 rpm.
It is fun setting here bench racing. I don't go out and play any more. (Kids and college took care of that). But it is fun throwing suggestions out and seeing the responses.
I live in Peru.
Also support the turbo's with brackets to keep them from dropping when the are glowing.
If headers can hold up to 1600 degree exhaust from a Gasser in full throttle use. It should hold on the diesel at 1200 degree. I wonder what type of header ringing a diesel would have compared to a Gasser.
Case500D you talked about doing what is called an over balance. It is all right for a engine that is going to run at a set rpm all the time. But for every day use, you would see vibration from the engine whenever it was running below the balance rpm. I used this trick for stock car engines. I had mine balanced for 8,000 rpm.
It is fun setting here bench racing. I don't go out and play any more. (Kids and college took care of that). But it is fun throwing suggestions out and seeing the responses.
I live in Peru.
As far as the rpm issue goes, some of the big boys are running these engines up to an over the 4000 mark. As long as the motor cannot run free the ballance should not be a concern.
ATS makes a fine product, but, their manifold only flows 18% more than a stock one. I will be using a pair of three into ones. I will also be installing pressure sensors for in/out readings in the torbo. If I can keep them as equal as possible that should work fine. I will know that the housings are the right size. Then the pump will need to be adjusted to make up for any lag or exess smoke.
I like to live outside the norm, that is why I am doing this. After all, my truck does 15. 80 in the quarter now. what I want is to go after some of these 2nd gen guys that say our trucks will never be as fast as theirs.
Then I can sit back and say 'neener-neener' and watch them scramble around trying to go faster.
--dave--
ATS makes a fine product, but, their manifold only flows 18% more than a stock one. I will be using a pair of three into ones. I will also be installing pressure sensors for in/out readings in the torbo. If I can keep them as equal as possible that should work fine. I will know that the housings are the right size. Then the pump will need to be adjusted to make up for any lag or exess smoke.
I like to live outside the norm, that is why I am doing this. After all, my truck does 15. 80 in the quarter now. what I want is to go after some of these 2nd gen guys that say our trucks will never be as fast as theirs.
Then I can sit back and say 'neener-neener' and watch them scramble around trying to go faster.
--dave--
sorry I missed out on the talk. up to this point my $$$ found its way in to my CTD wierd!!!!:-laf no e-mail:{ but I'm back sounds complicated!!! whitch company you think will get it first??? banks BD probbly one of us TDR members or a bunch huh??? One question PW why wouldn't you want it to smoke?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Be great for CA and emissions but no fun!!!!!!!!!
Frank
sounds complicated!!! whitch company you think will get it first??? banks BD probbly one of us TDR members or a bunch huh??? One question PW why wouldn't you want it to smoke?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Be great for CA and emissions but no fun!!!!!!!!!Frank
Interesting.
Had this discusion with Piers today. We are thinking of at least 400rwhp. Trying out one of his PDR HX35 right now.
All i can say is wow. Oo. Oo. Got to love that wistle.
Put it in after dinner and took it around the block. Boost went up 6lbs right away.
Have alittle tuning to do yet. if weather is good friday night i will be at the 1/4 mile track for some test and tune. Truck is capable of 14. 5 in the 1/4mile if my reaction time would improve. Thats with nothing removed from truck. Tools,spare tire, canopy, 2 people and camping gear to boot. Dam portapotty. With Piers's help 400rwhp can't be far away.
mark
therabbittree
TDR MEMBER
hey guys why not jsut swap a p pump into the first gen and tehn do twins?. . thats the set up im working on. . the truck wrecking yards have good used p pumps for cheap. . that where i got mine from. . and believe me im on a shoestring budget... ... email blue chip and ask to talk to tim hes working on s simialr set up on his personal truck parrel etc. . later
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!
That would be too easy. We are trying to prove to the people that said the VE44 is only good for about 230-240rwhp.
Yes the VE44 pump has its limitations, but were is it. Not every 1st gen owner is going to want to swap in a P7100 or have the mechanical abillity to, even if they have the money.
mark
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