Competition Two Head Gaskets In 30 Minutes

[COBRAJET]

Is this a record??? I blew mine today clowning with a G-Tech with a disabled wastegate. I had been home for 5 minutes when Kurt Voss who lives right down the street showed up. We got a pretty good laugh since his truck was just getting back on its feet from blowing one after installing twins. Well we went for a ride in his since it was finally "dialed" in only to blow his head gasket as well. We limped it home. Now we will tag team some trucks this weekend and get them back on their feet... CJ

 

[LSMITH]

WOW!!!! I think that is a record for sure!!



Happy wrenchin!

 

[F8LDOSE]

Stock head gasket and no o-ring I assume? How about him?

 

[COBRAJET]

Mine was stock, his is O-RINGED... CJ

 

[Jim Fulmer]

That sucks, is Kurt running a wastegate?



Jim

 

[COBRAJET]

On the primary... 20psi. The secondary is not wastegated... CJ

 

[Bob Wagner]

you have a great neighbor must be nice

 

[willyslover]

what more could a guy ask... diesel and turkey [wild or otherwise]. . sorry to hear of your plight . . but at least you will have something to talk about that most haven't done LOL



which style gasket did Kurt blow this time ? and what was his boost level when it said byby now

 

[COBRAJET]

Kurt blew a 20 over 12 valve gasket. Boost was over 55, not sure how much because the factory MAP only goes to 55 which is where his fueling box was getting its feed. He is waiting for the correct pigtail for guages he mounted last week in order to read above 55psi... . CJ

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Important lessons learned

The copper gasket with the imprinted sealant that DonM was promoting recently was a dismal failure on my truck and was leaking within a few miles of installation. This was replaced with a 0. 0020 over 12V gasket, which held for almost 3 weeks and let go on Wednesday - I guess it didn't want Cobrajet's truck to feel lonely . Third, we tried a stock 24V gasket today(with o-rings in place) as it was the only gasket to be found today - it was a dismal failure - it was leaking coolant into the combustion chamber as soon as it was fired up.



David and I found out that one of our new neighbors builds heads and intakes for Nascar engines - he is suggesting going back to a copper gasket 0. 0045 to 0. 0060 in thick, and sprayed with Hytack (?sp) - a Permatex product. I am open for suggestions on what road to take with this. I think that with the o-rings - a copper gasket is needed - but how to make it last is the issue.



Major thanks to Cobrajet for his help today (and for patient wives) - tomorrow, we do his head gasket. I think with enough practice - we could get this under 6 hours

 

[willyslover]

Kurt. . How deep is the grove cut / how much wire is exposed and did you use 041 wire ?

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

Involvement of the combustion chamber indicates that compression seal is compromised. I have heard of cases where metal erosion (on the deck of the block and/or the head where the stock gasket sealed compression around the bores) has been "repaired" by sanding the area(s) with a Dremel or similar grinder with a wheel. This process removes more metal from the places where is most desperately needed for clamp load on the gasket. Imperfect o-ringing also can compromise the compression seal.



A copper gasket is a simple device, usually soft for conformability. It may not last "forever" due to combustion heat but if it fails soon after installation in the compression seal, it is most usually a result of incorrect installation, which can also include under- or over-torquing the head bolts. Worse, some have gone to studs and then torque them well over 120 ft lb with slippery lubricant like moly on FINE threads. This increases the clamp load tremendously, to the point of sometimes warping the block or head. The cylinders can be rendered partially "hexagonal" by this procedure as well, compromising ring seal.



If a copper gasket, or a stock gasket, fails in the water jacket area only, it is sometimes caused by poor "goopum" or spray on sealer, sometimes by poor surfacing (either too rough or not flat enough), and in the case of using a 12 valve gasket on a 24 valve, by leakage from the exhaust side water passages that are not properly sealed by the gasket--a 12 valve gasket has a steel strip along the exhaust side whereas the 24 valve gasket has "roofing paper + red goopum" there to seal these passages.



I don't know how much boost you are running, but I suspect installation procedures, cleanliness, and flatness of the surfaces to be the culprits, not the various manufacturers of the gaskets. In particular, there is virtually nothing to go wrong with a copper gasket in the cylinder seal (compression) area. Similarly, if the surfaces are good and clean, it takes a lot of cylinder pressure to fail a stock gasket.



I have never failed a stock or stock + 0. 020" head gasket. I run up to 50 psi boost and have never resurfaced the engine block. I am using the factory surfacing job on the replacement head.



Hope this helps.

 

[Bob Wagner]

welcome back Joe

great information

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

guys something is wrong. i have had my head o-ringed for 15k miles with no problems. my truck has seen over 80psi, and runs 60psi almost everyday. all i have is the stock 24v gasket. i do not have a reciever groove in the block. i know christian has run close to 100psi with the same set up with no problems.

i'm not sure what is wrong, but something is for sure.



a o-ring and copper headgasket will seal the combustion gases very well. but the problem with copper is the water passages. normally on race car motors with copper headgaskets they will only run 5-7psi radiator caps to keep the pressure down so there are no coolant leaks. so far the oem gaskets are the way to go. i can't remember what size wire piers used on my head but it s holding up great!!!

i know chris sutton has had problems with his copper headgasket that he and nowell were using.

i wish you guys luck.



jim

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

Are you being careful to remove all coolant/oil from the bolt holes and cleaning them out extremely well?

 

[COBRAJET]

The bolt holes were blown out and chased with a tap. The original copper gasket was very thick... like in the . 125 range. The adhesive which came on the copper gasket did not seem to do anything. On the stock 12 valve gasket it appeared that the o-rings were trying to seal in the fire ring... not a good thing, but nothing could be done about it. We have not got a look at the 24V gasket yet... but it failed at idle. Our new top dog machinist buddy says his experience tells him to only run an o-ring setup with a cooper gasket... it is not compatible with anything else.



What was the reasoning for not having a receiver groove Jim?? This may be the problem with Kurt's versus yours. I am pretty confident that the install was performed professionally. Not the first rodeo for either of us. It was definitely clean of everything. The head will be checked for trueness before it is installed again. Finding the right gasket seems to be the issue right now.



We finished mine today. No problems except for a sloppy valve adjustment on intake No. 1 the first time around. It is running great, but needs to be defueled a little bit. We changed the 18cm housing for a 16 and the boost is well over 50 now. I did not push the issue, but 50 was pretty easy to get to. The lag is a lot better... duh... and more street friendly. It does not smoke near as much going through the gears. A little quicker boost sure helps that.



Any more suggestions???... CJ

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Originally posted by willyslover

Kurt. . How deep is the grove cut / how much wire is exposed and did you use 041 wire ?

The receiver groove is 0. 022 deep and the exposed wire is 0. 020 above the deck I believe. I'm not sure what size wire is used - I'll have to check with Nowel on that.



Edit: The receiver groove is 0. 026 deep, the wire is 0. 050.

 

[Brandon]

I would not know nothin bout no silly o-ranging

 

[willyslover]

Thanks Kurt

by those ##'s it is . 041 wire. . any signs of wire distortion [crushed ] at blowout area ?. .

did you cut a bottom groove [two o-rings ] or a receiver groove for the top ring ?



BTW... I'm going to do o-ring[s?] also just trying to keep a mental note to the failures and what was done so we all don't make the same trial and error blow outs



I may be way off here but don't think a receiver groove with that very thick gasket with . 041 wire will form the gasket into the receiver groove... gasket material is to hard [even annealing it] and groove to small... need to do more research



big difference between these motors and the small block Sprint car motors I have expierence with [years ago], gasket material is 2+ times thicker and the cylinder pressures are WAY different.

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

CJ



the main reason i didn't put a reciever grove in was i wanted to keep the block untouched. i also called enterprise and asked them what they were doing to hold big boost. the only difference at the time they were o-ringing the block and not the head.



as far as the oem gasket and o-ringing i don't know what to tell you other than it works without fail so far. when i talked with enterprise they told me that they didn't use copper so that was good enough for me. before i was at piers's shop they put a o-ring in place and torqued a oem gasket in place. they then removed the head, and after a lot of screwing around they finally got the gasket off, it was destroyed becuase the o-ring would not let go.



jim