Competition Two Head Gaskets In 30 Minutes

[willyslover]

Jim. . if I understand you, your using a stock gasket and your o-ring is in the head and the ring goes into the fire ring correct ?

 

[csutton7]

willyslover--yes it's in the fire ring--anyway that's what I've been told--



C-strkn--yes your stock gasket has held and as far as we know so have a lot of other Enterprise set-ups--the key is the wastegate--it's setup to not exceed a certain boost--I don't think that a few runs of above 65-70 psi will blow it--I think if you did several runs in the 75psi without a wastegate you'd be in trouble--maybe not, but this is what I think--



On my oring set up I went 4 months without a waste gate on the B1, with stock headbolts torqued to 135lbs, I broke one and it's no fun--



(torqueing the stock headbolts to anything above 110-115lbs will possibly result in the breakage of one or more or all bolts--don't do it, plus they relax back to 110lbs anyway)



and many 60psi runs without a problem, but then after 2. 5 months with the twins and no waste gate and multiple 78psi runs and 2 weeks after changing to studs I started to pressurize the coolant system above 60psi---my situation is plain weird is it the gasket, is the head being lifted, or ???? -one wouldn't think that the head would lift with studs torqued to 135psi, but it only does it at the higher boost and of course I think it's is getting slowly worse----HVAC, BRANDON and I have done some different setups and so far it looks like Brandon's and HVAC's systems are holding--time will tell though as usual--problem is time is what some of us don't have--we will probably run the risk of having failures for a little while until a defintive answer is available---this is R&D stuff and with everyone wanting twins and doing different systems and nobody able to wait this is what happens---ok I need to fire up the welder and JB bond--no more leaks for me :--) ... chris

 

[CUMINNTSTRKN]

willy's



yes you are right.



chris



i try and keep my boost below 65psi, above that they generate to much heat. when i was in spokane i was running 78psi with a 3/4" wastegate set at 60psi. i made 3 or 4 1/4 mile passes, and when i got home i made another 6 1/8 mile passes with that setup. i am also running my stock headbolts, so far there is no need to change them out.



jim

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Just like Bob said... .



Welcome back Joe!



Matt

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Copper Popper

all day long at 65psi, 30+ times at 75 psi and a couple at 90 psi (not wastegated) and still holding strong. Coppers great if you want to change it all the time , seriously though, we talked with a lot of people and the copper doesn't take head movement very well (and it does move). It will hold, just not for a long period of time. Heck if you've got enough room try a ring in the block and on the head. You most likely don't.



What do you say we screw the gasket and run sleeves with a C ring. We don't need no stinking gasket

 

[csutton7]

C-Roth--encouraging news--I figure I got 40+ runs at 65+psi---I've got the double o ring, that's what we did originally--one in the head and one in the block--so there is definitely room for it to be done-before I pull it all apart I'm going to put the head bolts back in for one test and see what happens--



c-ringing, one would think would be the ultimate-----chris

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

Good to hear you have got the double o-ring, or maybe not. Perhaps there is not enough of a sealing surface with the two rings.



(That opinion is not even worth $0. 02)



The problem wit o-ring the block is if you screw up, time for a new block, a head is a little cheaper.



As a great sled puller once said "It is easier to diagnose the problem when you have the pieces in you hand"

 

[HoleshotHolset]

My $. 02 worth... .



I have seen many turbo gasser cars keep blowing HG's until the torque was reduced in a couple of key places.



A prime example is the Chrysler 2. 2L/2. 5L turbo gassers... . the folks that really know what to do with these use the Mopar Performance HG and they don't torque down the outside 4 corners as much all the inside bolts. This reduced the number of HG failures on the 25+psi setups considerably...



We've come a LONG way since the 1800's when Rudolf was messing with his vegetable oil engine... It's going to take some time to figure out the magical formula to keep HG's in these Cummins B-series engines... . we're making headway, though.



Matt

 

[csutton7]

one would think that with the double oring with studs torqued down like I do that I wouldn't have a prob--maybe there's something to the too much torque that HOLEHOTSHOT spoke of--it's baffling--no water in oil or oil in water--just a build up of pressure in the coolant system and the water temp go right up there to 240* when the boost is pushed to 60+ psi----maybe the sealant I used on the whole gasket created a place for pressure to escape around the orings--like it got blown out or burned up or something after numerous runs---just totally baffled how the pressure could be getting by 2 orings---maybe because there's no receiver groove and the oring being as close together has created some sort of gap that was finally violated---or what----chris

 

[HoleshotHolset]

HOLEHOTSHOT? :-laf



I have seen many HG failures where the coolant/oil don't try to mix like salad dressing... . it's a bummer to say the least. I saw one just last week on a 3. 1L V-6 gasser... and had to be the bearer of bad news yet again... . this one did the same thing... . no oil/water mixing, but the coolant system was heavily pressurized and it overheated almost immediately after idling for ~2 min.



Matt

 

[CRoth - BD-Power]

I would agree with HHS, perhaps if you have another head kicking around you can try that one, you'd then have one less o-ring and it may seal better.



Also we were talking with Fel-Pro who used to make gaskets for Cummins, they mention that the biggest cause for failure on gaskets is improper torque (too much), and like Joe said it will start to warp the block and the head.



But the real people to ask are those mid west boys.





But heck all this info is now worth less than $0. 01.

 

[csutton7]

Matt--sorry about that--got to typing and talking on the phone and wasn't paying

attn---there's to many H,s,L,o's in that handle of your's ---HOLEhotSHOT-shotholesethot... etc. . ... chris

 

[HoleshotHolset]

I wonder if one midwest company **cough - Scheid - cough** has solved their HG problems..... if so, maybe they'll have something to help us out... . they are taking the 6BT farther than pretty much anyone else out there..... as far as boost, rpm, etc... .



Matt

On edit: I don't take offense to things very easily... . I figure if I can dish out the abuse I give to folks, then I should be able to take it too. That misprint was actually kinda funny... . makes me want to change my handle!

 

[bmoeller]

My uncle had head gasket problems on his Allis-Chalmers 8070 tractor. Blew 3 gaskets in about 100 hrs. of running time. Replaced the head bolts with new ones the last time around and is still holding so far. This tractor is running about 50hp. over stock.

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Some more info.

DonM came over last night and inspected the head and block. The head has enough variation to consider this a prime suspect in the lack of sealing. It is quite possible that the defects in the head were the cause of the initial failure of the copper gasket - especially in light of the fact that most of the carbon tracks from the cylinder were on the head as opposed to the deck.



What we have to decide now is what direction to go. From what I've read and heard, copper gaskets have not yet proven themselves to be long-term reliable - and may not be the best choice for a daily driver. The o-rings I have now are just on the outside edge of the crush-ring of the OEM gasket. One of the ideas we are considering is to get a new head (will get rid of the receiver groove - and the uneveness), and see about getting a custom gasket from Cometic Gasket with the crush ring centered over the current o-rings. Any comments or alternative ideas out there?

 

[csutton7]

maybe there should be no sealant at the crush ring area--just bare copper---chris