ULSD and Cloud Point

[JoeBioDiesel]

After seeing a few friends with dead trucks during the cold weather last week I decided to do a little checking. I filled three 5 gallon fuel cans at three different stations with ULSD(Mobil, Sunoco, and No-Name Local Stuff). I tested them this afternoon for Cloud Point with his certified test equipment (cool stuff). I was a bit shocked by the results.

We tested Cloud Point (CP) only. They tested at 11. 9F, 14. 0F and 21. 9F. That's around 20F higher than any winterized fuel I tested before. I've had B100 Biodiesel that tested as well as these samples. Now, keep in mind that CP is not the same as Cold Filter Plug Point (CFPP). That becomes a problem at about 10F lower temps, and gelling about 10F lower again, but it's still bad enough.



I recommend blending or treating your own fuel this winter. Last week I ran 16 ounces of Diesel 911(Red Bottle) in 25 gallons of fuel when it got into the single digits. I filled up at the same place as my neighbor. He has a common rail CTD. His truck died and mine didn't. I didn't get a chance to test my treated fuel. It would have been interesting to see.



... thought some of you might find it interesting.

Joe

 

[McLaughlin]

Yep, interesting. Hi here Fri is supposed to be 4.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

VERY interesting - how far behind clouding is gelling?



This undoubtedly explains my own truck getting grumpy at zero degrees...

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

In regular LSD I've seen fuel gel about 20F behind clouding. I've never tested ULSD before, but I don't expect it to be any different(that doesn't mean much though). This is unlike Biodiesel, where the cloud point is the same as the gel point... separated by a little time. When Biodiesel begins to cloud, all you have to do is hold it at that same temperature and eventually it gels.

Joe

 

[AndrewGray]

At the place I work at we never use #1 fuel. Well that has changed since ULSD came out. Now it is 50/50 mix with double rate of PS. We found out that #2 gells at 2 to 3 above. It was in out fuel supply tank. Now this weekend the temps may get to 5 below highs and down to 20 to 25 below at night. Goin to be all #1 with double PS for sure.

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Does anyone know the approved lubrication for the alternitave fuels?

A local place has water clear kero, 500ppm, and I will tell them to bill me the

road tax, or pony up the dollar or two. I think I just lost a LP, but have to check

to be sure. Can't have my little diesel Mercedes freeeze up too.

We are expecting -15. I will be calling the refinery in the morning to see what they guarantee.

 

[jmorse]

ULSD can only be cut with ultra low sulfer kero to stay @ 15 ppm. I'm told the kero is in short supply and most likely will be until 2010. All diesel, fuel oil and kero will have to be ultra low sulfer by 2010. It is necessary to use an anti gel additive until then, unless your fuel is already treated from the supplier.



Jim

 

[steved]

Well, that explains what happened to me the other day... probably the only thing that saved me (versus running an OE LP) was the FASS, and it was really straining to run when I was having the trouble.



steved

 

[JoeBioDiesel]

Schlickenmeyer, I think you'd be just fine if you ran some ashless 2 stroke oil in your fuel. You don't need a lot because you're not trying to lube a piston or cylinder walls, just trying to keep the injection pump cam, delivery valves and injectors lubed(except on the Benz, that probably has an inline pump that lubes the cam with motor oil). I use Amsoil synthetic at about 4 ounces/25 Gallons if using Kero, and only half that when running ULSD alone, but I've got a 12V, and those pumps require a lot less lube than the VP.

Joe

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Thanks, it will come to that. I just spoke to the refinery, and they confirm my suspicion that the biodiesel mandated by MN law WILL come out of solution and plug up filters and anything else it can. They say at -15f.

Well next week we may hit -20f.

I will start a new thread on this find as well.

 

[MFalkinham]

I recently had a problem with wild fluctuations in my electronic fuel pressure gauge. The needle would wildly swing from 25psi (normal) all the way down to 5psi, and all points in-between. The truck still ran OK, but the pressure definitely wasn't normal. I also have a mechanical fuel pressure gauge under the hood, and the pressures on that gauge showed fluctuations as well, so I know this was not a gauge problem.

I have a Walbro system that I installed back before Glacier came out with their kits, and have never had a problem until now. I suspected that perhaps my Walbro was having some sort of mechanical problem, so pulled it off and replaced with with my spare Walbro. The problem went away, and the pressure was back to normal. Puzzled, I sent the original Walbro out to Glacier for an evaluation. However, they found nothing wrong with it, and it worked just fine on the test bench.

About a week later, I once again saw the same wild fluctuations from the spare pump. I knew it wasn't mechanical, so I started racking my brain as to what it could be. I then went on a 16-hour road trip during very cold temps. During the first hour after a cold start the FP gauge jumped all over. After that, it suddenly became rock solid at 25psi. The outside temps during both problems were well below freezing, so I began to suspect fuel gelling in my pre-Walbro strainer filter causing starvation at the Walbro inlet. I wondered if the pressures stabilized after an hour due to the fuel heating up in the tank thanks to the OEM canister heater.

As a test, with the next tank of fuel I tripled the amount of anti-gel additive that I normally use. The fluctuation problem has not returned despite some VERY cold weather recently. It was 3 degrees when I started this morning (without a block heater), and the fuel pressure was steady.

I think the problem went away for a while when I replaced the pump because I was in a warm shop, and the gelling went away until the next cold snap. Glacier's testing of my first pump seems to confirm this.

Bottom line, ULSD seems to gel MUCH easier than LSD, and the normal dose of anti-gel additives is not adequate. I've read some recommendations to double the normal dose. Until this cold snap ends, I'm going to continue the triple-dose just to be sure.

 

[steved]

I've read some recommendations to double the normal dose. Until this cold snap ends, I'm going to continue the triple-dose just to be sure.

I am trying some different stuff... going to try some CRC diesel additive see if it works better than Howes (which really doesn't have the cold fuel info on it)...



I am also double dosing on the stuff as well...



steved

 

[MFalkinham]

I was using Howes normal dose when the problems occured. I'm now double-dosing the Howe's and adding an extra dose of Power Service to boot.

 

[PToombs]

At work when it gets way down in temps, we put the 911 PS in the machines we know are going out on rent. My buddy does it to his payloaders that plow snow also. Prevents lots of problems.

I looked at a bottle the other day, ULSD approved formula.

 

[steved]

Hmmm, I would wonder if the new regs on ULSD are also affecting the additives we use??? Not that ULSD is affectting the additives, but that the additive's reformulation to meet the ULSD specs is causing issues???



steved

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

The recent rash of cold weather issues, as well as scattered other reports of leakage and system failures was EXACTLY the reason some of us were dubious as to claims by some that "we need not worry" about this grand and wonderful new ULSD - after all "the oil companies have ONLY our best interests at heart, and are looking out for us"...



ULSD is HARDLY rocket science - and it's pretty laughable that those oil company "experts" never realized what happens to diesel fuels in cold weather... :-laf



As usual, when new fuels hit the scene, problems DO come with them, and it's the CONSUMER who suffers and pays the freight!

 

[Schlickenmeyer]

Well I wish the rest of you luck, but according to the diesel specialist at the refinery, there is nothing I can do to get the bio to ungel, short of raising the temperature. I will just not be able to run MN fuel in the winter.

 

[RSarvie]

Thanks, it will come to that. I just spoke to the refinery, and they confirm my suspicion that the biodiesel mandated by MN law WILL come out of solution and plug up filters and anything else it can. They say at -15f.

Well next week we may hit -20f.

I will start a new thread on this find as well.

I've been doing a little testing this week as it's been in the -20's F the last couple nights. Fuel right out of my tank which should be 2% bio ULSD, treated with a triple dose of Power Service (About 1 oz PS to 1 gal) has been clouding between about -8 F to -10 F. Not "gelled" yet, but getting pretty thick by -20F.



I've been re-thinking about plumbing a coolant line to my FASS or something now to warm up the fuel in extreme conditions. Saw a 150W stick on heater pad maybe to put on the water separator of the FASS, 120v however. I did a test and ran it off an inverter for a while and it warmed up. Something to get you through in extreme temps in a pinch? Or a heated fuel line maybe? I don't know, brainstorming a little.



Been reading on the fuel system a little and understand there is a return fuel line coming from the VP, as well as the injectors. Does anybody know how warm this return fuel is? Warm enough to de-gell/cloud the rest of the fuel in the tank once you get going? Don't have my stock fuel filter/heater canister hooked up anymore. Ideas???



This bio, or ULSD, whichever, is causing problems with school busses now it sounds like from the news tonight.

 

[steved]

I've been doing a little testing this week as it's been in the -20's F the last couple nights. Fuel right out of my tank which should be 2% bio ULSD, treated with a triple dose of Power Service (About 1 oz PS to 1 gal) has been clouding between about -8 F to -10 F. Not "gelled" yet, but getting pretty thick by -20F.



I've been re-thinking about plumbing a coolant line to my FASS or something now to warm up the fuel in extreme conditions. Saw a 150W stick on heater pad maybe to put on the water separator of the FASS, 120v however. I did a test and ran it off an inverter for a while and it warmed up. Something to get you through in extreme temps in a pinch? Or a heated fuel line maybe? I don't know, brainstorming a little.



Been reading on the fuel system a little and understand there is a return fuel line coming from the VP, as well as the injectors. Does anybody know how warm this return fuel is? Warm enough to de-gell/cloud the rest of the fuel in the tank once you get going? Don't have my stock fuel filter/heater canister hooked up anymore. Ideas???



This bio, or ULSD, whichever, is causing problems with school busses now it sounds like from the news tonight.

Ha, this is too funny!



Temps this weekend were around zero here...



I found this weekend that my fuel is doing the same thing... it is so thick that the FASS is having to really strain to pump it (I have no doubt the OE pump would have choked by now). Trying to push that thick fuel through a 1 micron HF6604 isn't helping either!!



I also found that even triple dosing Howe's Diesel Treat does very little. I was running triple dosed fuel and the pump was straining. I ran 10 gallons of CRC additive-treated fuel (double dosed) from my auxilary tank and the FASS almost immediately starting sounding normal. The fuel in the auxilary tank was also from a different station (maybe their winterization process is better??), so I might be looking for a new place to fuel. I am also never using Howe's again as it doesn't seem to work.



I am also looking into adding heat to the FASS... I just have not figured out how... I don't like running coolant lines that far (and if I did, they'd be 3/8" stainless or 1/2" aluminum)... I found a place that makes electric "filter blankets" that look interesting (arctic fox??)... I also have thought about simply adding a "glow plug" type heater into the coolant ports on the fass to add heat...



It really sucks as this time last year I ran -25*F temps from Reading, PA to Indianapolis, IN without a single hint of problem with LSD... now with this ULSD... sucks. I doubt my truck would start with this ULSD junk they are selling around here...



steved

 

[Turbo Tim 1]

You have a point there, I buy all of my fuel at Hess, I think I'll switch to Sunoco and see if there is any difference. It was 6 degrees this morning with a double dose of Stanadyne and my idle pressure was 10 psi and 4-5 psi going down the road 35 mph. Yesterday it was 18-20 degrees and I had 14. 5 psi at idle and 12 going 74 mph on the highway