ULSD lubricity additives options

[TLanier]

Was wondering what the opinions were regarding possible additives to bring up the lubricity of ULSD. My ideas are:



Adding 1. 75 gal B100 to my 35 gal tank to make B5; read that B5 brings the lubricity WAY up, and this would be cheap. I can get B100 for $3. 50/gal and keep some in a can in the back for fill ups.



Adding straight vegetable oil like soybean or canola to reg #2. I would like to add just enought to increase lubricity, but not be in gel point danger (denver gets a few 0 degree days. Can get a gallon of the stuff, clean and unused, for pretty cheap from a restaurant owner friend of mine.



Also, I know that here in Denver, Flying J sells straight, unblendend (non-winterized) #2 all year. They say all their diesel at the Aurora station is such. Anyone know of any other place locally that has winter availability of unblended #2?



cheers

 

[Msilbernagel]

From studies I've managed to find, 1-2% BioD will bring most anything reasonable within lubricity specs, and even some that isn't (JP-8!).



If you're in climates with temps below 20F, you would also want to use some type of gel-point reducing additive? That figure is just a SWAG tho...



Mark

-

Was wondering what the opinions were regarding possible additives to bring up the lubricity of ULSD. My ideas are:



Adding 1. 75 gal B100 to my 35 gal tank to make B5; read that B5 brings the lubricity WAY up, and this would be cheap. I can get B100 for $3. 50/gal and keep some in a can in the back for fill ups.



Adding straight vegetable oil like soybean or canola to reg #2. I would like to add just enought to increase lubricity, but not be in gel point danger (denver gets a few 0 degree days. Can get a gallon of the stuff, clean and unused, for pretty cheap from a restaurant owner friend of mine.



Also, I know that here in Denver, Flying J sells straight, unblendend (non-winterized) #2 all year. They say all their diesel at the Aurora station is such. Anyone know of any other place locally that has winter availability of unblended #2?



cheers

 

[TLanier]

well, ive never had gel problems with straight #2 unblended at 0 degrees f. 1 or 2 percent bio blended in should gel but a few degrees higher; i dont see a need to put in anti gel additives at those levels of mixture.



what about svo?



btw, just filled up at aurora flying j, and all the diesel pumps in the auto lines are ULSD.

 

[Champane Flight]

Do not worry...

Was wondering what the opinions were regarding possible additives to bring up the lubricity of ULSD. My ideas are:



Adding 1. 75 gal B100 to my 35 gal tank to make B5; read that B5 brings the lubricity WAY up, and this would be cheap. I can get B100 for $3. 50/gal and keep some in a can in the back for fill ups.



Adding straight vegetable oil like soybean or canola to reg #2. I would like to add just enought to increase lubricity, but not be in gel point danger (denver gets a few 0 degree days. Can get a gallon of the stuff, clean and unused, for pretty cheap from a restaurant owner friend of mine.



Also, I know that here in Denver, Flying J sells straight, unblendend (non-winterized) #2 all year. They say all their diesel at the Aurora station is such. Anyone know of any other place locally that has winter availability of unblended #2?



cheers

Lubricity additive is in your ULSD, it is additized at the terminal when the truck loads, lubricity levels are checked and double checked. Any additive failure automatically shutsdown loading and BOL is locked until terminal personel can check load and additive system. Truck does not leave terminal until all is well, and lubricity is at specs. I would ask them who there fuel source is, almost all diesel coming into Colorado is refinery blended to climate, with freeze points of -10 to -20. Many jobbers are taking it lower with 75-25% blends with #1. If you want to run bio in this climate, I would go with a #1 bio blend, have a lab do a freeze point/pour point test on the blend you want to use, and stick with it. .

 

[cj hall]

i would if i used usld

Hello Tlanier

I would put something in there.

Some people out there think the fuel the way it comes from the refinery is the best thing you can run.

A gallon of Clean Veg Oil unused would be the way I would go but I would use around 3 gallons, this will bring the lube way up on the the ULSD fuel. the sulphur was the lube in the fuel.



I went to the dodge dealer today the tell the head mec about a problem I have with my 05 (high soot levels in the oil) more on this later in the dse in truck 04-05 ctd. I ask him about the new fuel and if he has seen any problems with it. I got an ear full about that and he has ten trucks needing new IP pumps he said lack of lube in the fuel and walked away. He had a pump in his hand . Dodge says add something,Cummins says add something,all of them say add somethig to make it better.



just my thoughts



cj hall

 

[Champane Flight]

Where?

Hello Tlanier

I would put something in there.

Some people out there think the fuel the way it comes from the refinery is the best thing you can run.

A gallon of Clean Veg Oil unused would be the way I would go but I would use around 3 gallons, this will bring the lube way up on the the ULSD fuel. the sulphur was the lube in the fuel.



I went to the dodge dealer today the tell the head mec about a problem I have with my 05 (high soot levels in the oil) more on this later in the dse in truck 04-05 ctd. I ask him about the new fuel and if he has seen any problems with it. I got an ear full about that and he has ten trucks needing new IP pumps he said lack of lube in the fuel and walked away. He had a pump in his hand . Dodge says add something,Cummins says add something,all of them say add somethig to make it better.



just my thoughts



cj hall

Maybe you could show us the tech bulletin that states Cummins and Dodge want you to put lubricity additives in the fuel?

 

[HSpiering]

Keep hearing about animal fat and vegie fat. Don't know the best so to be safe I shove 1/4 lb butter and 1/4 lb margarine in the tank just before fill up. Gone 200 miles works great so far. :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[Msilbernagel]

You forgot the popcorn!



Turns out that it does nicely when boost exceeds 15lbs, and can be collected using a mesh bucket at the end of the exhaust. . :-laf



Add one of those nifty DVD players in-dash, and you can take the little lady anywhere. Oo.



Take care,



Mark

--

Keep hearing about animal fat and vegie fat. Don't know the best so to be safe I shove 1/4 lb butter and 1/4 lb margarine in the tank just before fill up. Gone 200 miles works great so far. :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[rweis]

I'm pretty sure the sulfur is not the lubricant.



Taking the sulfur out process is where the problem is.



Theoretically the refiners / delivery system adds lubricant back in as stated above. Enough?, hummm does cost $$ to do that and I would bet is minimum standard.



My . 02 is on Stanadyne or the like to get it right.



Bob Weis



Popcorn, butter, DVD, I wonder if NetFlix delivers to moving vehicles?

 

[Champane Flight]

Basis

I'm pretty sure the sulfur is not the lubricant.



Taking the sulfur out process is where the problem is.



Theoretically the refiners / delivery system adds lubricant back in as stated above. Enough?, hummm does cost $$ to do that and I would bet is minimum standard.



My . 02 is on Stanadyne or the like to get it right.



Bob Weis



Popcorn, butter, DVD, I wonder if NetFlix delivers to moving vehicles?

Our lubricity levels are not set by the oil company, but by the additive supplier. We have to send a sample of ULSD before lubricity into them every week, they test and set injection rates. They have told us our ULSD is up to standard without addiitves, we still inject because of lower #s of conductivity. So there is plenty of lubricity in ULSD, no butter and pam is needed. .

I use additives myself, just because it makes my engines sound and run smoother. Plus it gives me that added protection in the winter months. I also keep my tank full to prevent condensation. Amsoil cetane booster and diesel modifier.

 

[Duluth Diesel]

Another option to consider, if you don't want to dump cow fat and the uncracked straight vegie oil in your truck, AMSOIL recently reengineered their diesel additives to be bio and ULSD compatible, and folks have had great results using it.

 

[cj hall]

what does this mean

http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/liberty-review.html

As an added factor in their favor, diesels can run on "grown and distilled" fuel - that is, biodiesel, which is a fluid with diesel-like properties made by distilling almond oil, soy, or various garden wastes. Biodiesel is grown naturally, does not require lots of outside energy for distillation (as alcohol and hydrogen do), and, when spilled, is generally not toxic. People can actually grow their own biodiesel fuel; Chrysler uses a 5% bio fuel ("B5," see sidebar) for Libertys as they leave the factories, but research has shown that pure biodiesel can be run in Cummins turbodiesels (used in Ram trucks) with no harm, and we suspect Libertys can run it equally well. (Pure biodiesel is fairly rare at commercial filling stations, even in Europe, but common in Germany, where it qualifies for tax breaks. As the EU phases in renewable-fuel laws, the proportion of bio to petrodiesel will increase. ) Thus, diesels can actually be the most environmentally and socially friendly engines: they can preserve open space by helping farmers to stay in business, divert revenues from terror-supporting nations and businesses, and, because the fuel can be produced locally with very little energy input, producing and distributing biodiesel requires less fuel (oil brought in from the Middle East must be shipped by boat and refined - both steps require quite a bit of fuel).



why are we talking about ulsd when we can run 100 % bio diesel also if 100%biodiesel will work so will 100% vegoil



do you think its funny how Mr Champane Flight on this post had said the fuel conoco makes is just fine for our engines but in his own he uses an additive because it runs sound and run smoother , this is the type of talk we all are sick of( Do as I say not as I do) if you think its the best why not run it like its made ????????



not buying it, not buying in to it.

cj hall

 

[Duluth Diesel]

diesels can run on "grown and distilled" fuel - that is, biodiesel, which is a fluid with diesel-like properties made by distilling almond oil, soy, or various garden wastes. Biodiesel is grown naturally, does not require lots of outside energy for distillation (as alcohol and hydrogen do), and, when spilled, is generally not toxic.



why are we talking about ulsd when we can run 100 % bio diesel also if 100%biodiesel will work so will 100% vegoil



cj hall

The only issue I see, that is failed to be clarified here, is that 100% biodiesel IS NOT the same as 100% veg oil. Biodiesel is refined, or cracked, to make the hydrocarbons in the oil more burnable. This is done with lye and methanol. Putting processed biodiesel in your tank is different than just dumping in cooking oil. And, biodiesel, when spilled, is toxic and corrosive. The methanol is toxic, as is the refined biofuel. Much of what your posted cj hall, isn't entirely accurate. Biodiesel isn't "grown naturally" per se. It still takes energy and chemicals to process it. We're not squeezing pure soy beans into our tanks. There are toxic characteristics to biodiesel. Anyway, the point is that dumping a little pure vegie oil in your tank probably won't do much more than gunk up your fuel system. While the pure, uncracked hydrocarbons in pure veg oil DO add lubricitive qualities to ULSD fuel, it also acts as a great carbon source to feed the natural microbes present in diesel fuel. This can cause an already existing diesel algae problem to bloom out of control. Also, pure veg oil breaks down quickly and can end up floating on the surface of your fuel in various states of decomposition. The level of useless gunk in your tank can accumulate over numerous fillups. I just don't like the possible consequences of dumping unrefined or uncracked oil in your tank. No thanks. Commercial additives, in general, are comprised of cracked hydrocarbon products that integrate better with diesel fuel, don't leave residue and gunk, don't act as a carbon source for critters that can live in skunky fuel, and often have detergents and anti-gel additives to add up to a more complete additive package. Adding 2 stroke oil to diesel fuel is enough of a stretch for me, but at least it is petroleum based, although it is designed to integrate with gasoline not the heavier diesel fuel, so you won't see me adding the stuff to my tank. But adding pure vegie oil, such as cooking oil? No thanks.

 

[tgordon]

duluth, the IRS will fight you on that one, they classify B100 as vegetable oil. :--)



Isn't burocracy wounderfull :-laf :-laf :-laf

 

[Matt400]

Our lubricity levels are not set by the oil company, but by the additive supplier.

Now isn't that interesting! Any ideas what the HFRR number is after the tankers are filled and what company is responsible for the injection rates? I would like to know from them what there HFRR number is

We have to send a sample of ULSD before lubricity into them every week, they test and set injection rates. They have told us our ULSD is up to standard without addiitves, we still inject because of lower #s of conductivity. So there is plenty of lubricity in ULSD

According to this article a proposed level of 520 microns is a reasonable compromise to ensure proper protection for injection equipment.

The wear numbers speak for themselves in this CARB fuels workshop pdf where 460 is the number to strive for.



520 HFRR doesn’t look favorable when compared to Boshes report.

I think suppliers should have to post their HFRR and Cetane number right on the pump so consumers willing to do the research can at least have the data to make an informed decision on using additives.

 

[Champane Flight]

http://www.allpar.com/model/jeep/liberty-review.html

do you think its funny how Mr Champane Flight on this post had said the fuel conoco makes is just fine for our engines but in his own he uses an additive because it runs sound and run smoother , this is the type of talk we all are sick of( Do as I say not as I do) if you think its the best why not run it like its made ????????



not buying it, not buying in to it.

cj hall

Not asking you to. . I run a cetane booster because most diesel fuels in the USA have a lower cetane than I like to run. Cetane of 45 and I like running a little higher, plus I have the added protection if temps drop to -30. I do not always have the option of running our fuel. Have you found that tech bulletin yet cj?



We are responsible for the injection rates, I will post our present HFRR levels when we get our last weeks sample results. Our Premium diesel has a cetane of around 47-48. Here is an interesting article on lubricity.





www.epa.gov/diesel/presentations/lubricityupdate.pdf



corporate. lubrizol.com/... /pdflibrary/WorldFuelsToday120214.pdf

 

[Matt400]

We are responsible for the injection rates, I will post our present HFRR levels when we get our last weeks sample results.

So then this means you not only send samples before to determine injection rates but also after to verify results, correct?



I found the link you posted:

http://corporate.lubrizol.com/PressRoom/MediaCoverage/pdflibrary/WorldFuelsToday120214.pdf

interesting, not just the lubrizol related article but where it was posted in World Fuels Today. Can't say as I have ever seen online subscription rates like these!

 

[cj hall]

Hello Champane Flight



You know as will as I do that Dodge/Cummins/ any auto maker will not put that in a Tech Bulletin if they did they would have to buy it for you. thats the law



when I said dodge /cummins say put some thing in there thats the person working on the engine. the one that sees what bad fuel can do.

the company making the engine is as greedy as the company making the fuel. you all blame some one else when it goes wrong. we make the fuel another company tells us what to add to bring it to spec. but they tell us its ok be we add it anyway ,that becuase you want some one else to blame.

All I am saying is the ULSD is not good for the injection pumps or any other part needing lube in the fuel for the older engines,it (might) be fine for the 2007 models but not the older ones.

This is the same thing as the unleaded gas / leaded gas issue yes they will run on either but the fact is the engines made for running leaded fuel did not like the new unleaded fuel. and by the time you find this out its on your dime not the auto makers.



cj hall

 

[Matt400]

ULSD is not good for the injection pumps or any other part needing lube in the fuel for the older engines,it (might) be fine for the 2007 models but not the older ones.

This is the same thing as the unleaded gas / leaded gas issue yes they will run on either but the fact is the engines made for running leaded fuel did not like the new unleaded fuel.

Not really the same at all because ULSD has nothing to do with the engine like unleaded did on none hardened valve seats of older gas engines.



ULSD sole purpose is to allow the use of after treatment systems in the exhaust that would ordinarily be damaged by LSD. Thats why ULSD is backwards compatible because older diesels don't have these new after treatment emission systems. The 07 engines are not going to be any better off on low lubricity than earlier models.

 

[Champane Flight]

It means

So then this means you not only send samples before to determine injection rates but also after to verify results, correct?



I found the link you posted:

http://corporate.lubrizol.com/PressRoom/MediaCoverage/pdflibrary/WorldFuelsToday120214.pdf

interesting, not just the lubrizol related article but where it was posted in World Fuels Today. Can't say as I have ever seen online subscription rates like these!

It means I have not seen them yet, we get them two days after sending them, we have not had to change additive injection rates since we started the program two years ago... Everything our company does is in excess, the government requires 1. 0# of stench per ten thousand gallons propane, we put in 1. 5#. The EPA requires logging VCU levels we have both a computerized memory card, and a paper chart recorder . We test our octanes daily also, our blended gasolines are two points higher than the state requires, we are giving octane away. . We monitor every reciept, our storage, and our sales daily. Any changes in gravity, flash, sulfur levels, conductivity are logged, and sales is suspended until further testing can be verified. We do not have the equipment for HFRR testing, altough we probably will, we already spend half a day testing diesel, we do have other products to test also.



cj, ULSD is basically the same as your 500ppm LSD, minus the sulfur, the old trucks such as mine can handle it just fine, the only thing lubricated by fuel is the top of the plungers, and the injector face. Very little to worry about, and as I have stated that is taken care of. Why do you believe everyone is out to rip you off? As I have stated our fuel has passed standards above and beyond what the government has put in place. You may put cat poop in your fuel if you like, no one is saying you have to buy our diesel.