Engine/Transmission (1994 - 1998) Ultimate p7100 thread.

[WadePatton]

Do we have one of those? I'm looking for a lot of detail on the interaction between the various components of the 12v fuel system.



Not full engineering detail, but enough to better understand the system and why I'm doing what to it.



Components I'm concerned with: fuel pump, delivery valves, injectors. Then the control assembly, gov' springs, star wheel, torque plate, AFC housing. Settings commonly adjusted: pump timing, lever, plate position, flow.



I'm sure I left some stuff out. All this stuff works together, and I know that there are differing opinions out there, we can sort that out later.



Which settings/changes are most important to maintain balance in the setup?



Which settings are most important and least?



Is there a thread like this one already out there?



Help us 24v (and many 12v) folks learn how to play with 12v's. --Dazzle us with your brilliance!

 

[TGaines]

I would definitely be interested in this as I have a 96 with an auto. I need all the help I can get.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

To be honest... . it all depends on what you're tuning it for.....



Let us know... . we can custom tailor the settings for `ya.



Matt

 

[illflem]

Check here for a lot of info

http://www.tstproducts.com/power_kits_trial.htm



tons of info here also

http://dodgeram.org/tech/dsl/more_power/power_p7100.htm

 

[WadePatton]

Yes, those are informative links for the true novice. And I'm a "true novice" when it comes to the hands-on tuning of the 12v, but I've been studying it for some time.



More detail. Fuel delivery of the pump, for example. The stock x pump is set up to deliver x cc's of fuel per stroke- right? Pump shops regularly "turn up" the pumps to deliver more cc's per stroke. How much is too much? How much with x delivery valve? Stock injectors are obviously too small to deliver the fuel that the pump can be set to deliver. When must the delivery valves be upgraded? I understand timing the pump. How is the pump flow changed?



Nevermind the governor, and those mods, or air requirements for this session. Let's get into the flow, valves, and injectors part to get started.



And I'll go look through all those TDR links from that second site. Nevermind, the links are dead.



Actual application I'll be dealing with: As much fuel as I can push from a 160 pump and 370's with consideration for the HX-35/16. For not-so-competitive pulling and goofing off. transmission will handle it.



That's stage one. Stage two will involve a B1-class charger.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Wade said: "Actual application I'll be dealing with: As much fuel as I can push from a 160 pump and 370's with consideration for the HX-35/16. "



An OEM 160 pump with 370's on the other end will probably be approaching the outer limits of the OEM HX-35... no matter which turbine housing you have on it.



We had to push Dad's plate back quite a bit to allow for him to tow (6000# boat) with 370's and a 180 pump... . he has an HX-35/16.



Not trying to push the product(s)... . but he really likes his ATS manifold - that made a nice little drop in EGT's for him..... so did the PDR camshaft... . he's a huge fan of the cam. Now we can push the plate forward a little bit.....



As far as getting info out of people on how they increase CC's - good luck. You gotta make friends with folks that run non-OEM specs types of pump shops. The generally accepted method of increasing flow usually centers around the plungers/barrels... . and then making sure that they have all the fuel they need... . which goes into the fuel delivery into the pump issue... ... ... it never ends. You're better off just laying down the cash and letting a reputable shop modify your pump - they've done lots of 'em and know 'em inside and out.



I wanted to modify my P-7100 for the longest time - then realized it's sorta like an auto transmission. I know enough about what goes on inside to get myself into trouble... . but that's about it. There's certain things on my truck I leave for the experts... . pumps and auto trannies are about the only thing I just don't feel comfortable enough with.



Matt

 

[WadePatton]

Originally posted by HoleshotHolset



As far as getting info out of people on how they increase CC's - good luck. You gotta make friends with folks that run non-OEM specs types of pump shops. The generally accepted method of increasing flow usually centers around the plungers/barrels... . and then making sure that they have all the fuel they need... . which goes into the fuel delivery into the pump issue... ... ... it never ends. You're better off just laying down the cash and letting a reputable shop modify your pump - they've done lots of 'em and know 'em inside and out.



I wanted to modify my P-7100 for the longest time - then realized it's sorta like an auto transmission. I know enough about what goes on inside to get myself into trouble... Matt

No no, I respect the pump shop's expertise and will pay for putting the pump on the stand. I'm just trying to grasp a good overall CLEAR picture of the inner workings of the beast.



Seems like I'll have to live on conjecture and wive's tales.



And yes to the ATS manifold. I feel it is more necessary on the 12v than the 24--but I'll have one on both of them eventually.



On the being overfueled--that's the general idear ain't it?!

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Wade:



Okay - we're both on the same page then... .



I thought you were thinking of modifying your pump all on your own.



The ATS is a sweet piece, and is perfect for those of us who cringe every time we hear it cooling down (shrinking) after shutting down the engine.



Being overfueled is okay... . you know where I stand on that issue.



To learn more about specific areas of the P-7100 - you might want to just start asking away..... I'm sure we all have something to contribute to the discussion.



Matt

 

[WadePatton]

generally specific

I quote me: More detail. Fuel delivery of the pump, for example. The stock x pump is set up to deliver x cc's of fuel per stroke- right? Pump shops regularly "turn up" the pumps to deliver more cc's per stroke. How much is too much? How much with x delivery valves? Stock injectors are obviously too small to deliver the fuel that the pump can be set to deliver. When must the delivery valves be upgraded? I understand timing the pump. How is the pump flow changed?



To be sure, what I've found out so far is that diesel minds DIFFER!:-{}



I'm working with a 160 pump. And can get more specific with all the other parts pieces---but I was wanting some generally specific theory at least. Not -put this in and that in and you're done. I would like to learn a little about the inter-mechanical-relationships of the pump and afc and gov WITHOUT using the trial and error method.





I may have to delete this thread. The title is WAY misleading...

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Joe D. and Strick-9 have both been known to have their noses in the Bosch books.



Perhaps you could persuade them into giving you a 'whiteboard' on the various parts you need to know about.



Like I said - I know enough to get myself into trouble, but that's about it.



Matt

 

[WadePatton]

Talked to Joe last night. He's the man for 215 pumps. I'm afraid I'll have to hound Piers for 160 pump info.



There are two other guys working with 160's around here, but they're going WFO(zero plate/no plate, cut DV's, showerheads, HX50 hybrids, etc. I'm not going that far. Want a balanced system around 375 first level.



Like golf I suppose-- Just hit and hope.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Wade:



I just shot you an email... .



Matt

 

[WadePatton]

thanks Matt

OHMIGAWD, there IS information out there.



I emailed Piers--he might chime in.



I'm not asking for secrets, just generally specific theory and intermechanical reality of the 7100 pump--and the tweaking thereof. Moderate tweaking at that--say sub-500HP and the balancing act required--fuel side only.

 

[HoleshotHolset]

Cool!



It would be good to hear from the vendors every once in a while.



I think we scared them off..... rightfully so.



Matt

 

[WadePatton]

ye-up

I understand fellers not wanting to give away the 600-700-800 HP secrets that they worked hard on.



Suppose I'll have to go to Bosch for answers, and find a pump shop closer than 3 hours away--that's not askeerd of flowing too much fuel.



I guess there's just no much interest in the poor old p7100 anymore. I think I'll start collecting them.

 

[Jim Fulmer]

I understand fellers not wanting to give away the 600-700-800 HP secrets that they worked hard on.



I'm at 700 and have told it all, not all of us keep quiet. It's not that hard it just takes Money and Time.



Jim

 

[akline]

KEEP IT GOING

I am very interested in the idea behind this thread.

I have a 1995 4x4 manual (I think a 175 hp pump-i forget off the top of my head) with the top cover slid all the way front, star-wheel turned all the way out, fuel plate slid all the way front, and my wastegate is deactivated. I had a problem that is discussed in detail in the 'bucking problem' thread which turned out to be the fuel overflow valve. This valve regulates how much pressure from the lift pump is kept in the injection pump. Now my question is(while noting the guys are doing this on 24v engines), if 10 psi is not enough(I think it is supposed to be around 20 psi), why not go to 30, 40 or even 50 psi? What are the consequences?(good or bad)

I would also like to know what exactly I have done or am causing to happen with the other mentioned modifications-I know I have more smoke and more and quicker power when I want it-but what is really happening in there?

I think that is the idea behind this thread. Thanks

 

[Joseph Donnelly]

What you need for 600-700-800 has been posted. You just have to read and believe the right posts. Twins give 75-130 hp; water/alcohol injection gives about 100 (right, Jim?), the 215 pump or a pump with 13 mm p&B helps. Picking the right parts vendors helps, and dyno tuning everything helps.



Money helps a lot. . . wanna buy a Sickly old Ram?

 

[WadePatton]

governor lever theory by me

Joe, I want to start understanding the pump from the ground up. Not just chuck parts into it.



Like the governor lever and torque plate. I'd like to unnerstand just exactly how the humps on the plate work the lever. What is the lever attached to? How do the springs change things? Why does Piers advise checking/adjusting the lever and everybody else says leave it alone unless it's on a stand.



Is there a good explanation of things like this somewhere? Or do I just have to guess at it?



Let's see here's what I've figgered out: The lever is connected to the foot feed. It engages the governor which reduces fuel flow. If you move the plate forward it delays the interaction of the lever/plate. When the lever is not pushed up against the plate there is no governing activity. More aggressive plates reduce governing by allowing the lever to mover further forward. Humps and bumps in the plate affect the governing at particular RPM. The lever starts at the bottom of the plate and rides up with throttle or RPM, or both? No plate or Zero plate equals no governing action at all.



There are some other moving parts in there that I'm not so fluent with (for those of you who don't know, I'm pretty much guessing at the above) I've heard of things like springs "GSK" and "AFC", rack, cam, delivery valves, etc.



I'm working on it. Springs will be here soon, and I'll have #1 DV out this week.



Maybe I should have called this thread "P7100--101 The Basics"

 

[Berrigan]

Wade



Do a search using key word "hip bone" Then look down about 4 threads and find the thread "asking alot". There might be some info you want there. It helped me to understand the pump alot.

Bill