Ultimate Shop

[Rotty]

I am in the process of getting permits for my garage. You can never have enough 120 plugs, like every 4'. At the bench have the plugs every 16". You may think that it is too many, but they will get filled very quickly. Included 220vac- 20a for table saws, etc. and 50amp for the welder and compressor. Use copper wire everywhere. Also put in plenty of phone jacks. Pour the floor at 6" thick wire wire reinenforcing (you don't want cracks). Radiant in the floor is ok but work with a designer to understand all of the pitfalls. You would be much better off with 6" on insulation in all of the walls and insulated garage door. Think about fire alarms for when stuff happens. Water faucets on all four corners of the garage. Seal the floor. one toilet, 1 shower, and 1 utility sink are a must. After work on your stuff, do you think the wife is going to let you in the house???? and beside it double as a pretty cool dog house for you you forget an anniversery, etc... .

1 frig. for all of the beer for you and your buddies.

A good strong bench that is tied to the outside wall that will take all of the reefing the get that pesky nut of the transmission that you will be working on. A couple of nice chairs to sit down and enjoy the beer after succesfully rebuilding the classic car/truck.



How do I know all of this???? Because I didn't get it right the first time and now I am going to do it a second time and get it right... .



PS> and lots of lights, just like plugs, you never have enough.

When ordering power for the building, order 200amp service.

If you have any questions, PM me.

Been there, done that and doing it one last time. :--)

 

[Champane Flight]

Planning

I already told the wife to get started on her plans for the new home we are building for retirement. The first thing she says is " I think you need a bathroom, shower, TV, stereo, and a recliner in the garage. " I am finally getting the real reason for all these luxurys in the garage. I am building her a new house, and then I can move to the garage! Is this fair?

 

[illflem]

Rotty reminded me of something else-- plan for power and air outlets under the front of your bench tops. Keeps cords and hoses off your work area.

 

[Shovelhead]

Also figure out how much room you'll need for all your stuff... ..... then double it to accommodate all of Wifey's stuff that she now can't store in the house so it's "Gotta go in the garage".

My present "Toybox" is a 2 bay 30' X 30'.

The next one I build will be a 4 bay 60'X60'.

 

[Champane Flight]

Overhead

I worked in a engine shop once that had overhead air hookups and hanger for tools. It was OK, but kept trying to hang myself on retracting air hose!

 

[Scot]

Re: Broken Pvc??

Originally posted by Lsfarm

I want a fire suppression/sprinkler system in my shop, but haven't figured out a freeze proof system yet. I don't leave the water system pressurized when I'm not in the shop, so I would have to have a resevoir or something similar for a sprinkler system. I've been told that water damage is worse than and more common than fire damage. [I'm not sure I believe this] The sprinkler system would have to run above the ceiling and insulation, so it could freeze.



Greg L. The Noise Nazi

Go with what is callled a dry system. There is water in the riser but the plate is held down with about 30 psi of air. Build a small riser room ~4'x4' and heat it. When a sprinkler head fuses the air is exhausted and you get water out of that head only. Not like what you see in hollywierd. NFPA has adopted using plastic pipe if your jurisdiction having authority accepts it.



The record on sprinkler systems putting out fires is something like 97% -assuming- the system is operational.



There is usually a flow switch that is monitored by the alarm company.



Water damage is often worse than the fire damage. Sprinkler systems need to be flowed out of the inspectors test valve to try to get as much of the black, foul smelling water out as possible.



Another system to consider is running the piping with no riser, just a fire department connection. It allows them to get water on the seat of the fire quicker without having to take time to make entry.

 

[Lsfarm]

Fire Sprinkler System

Thanks Scot, do you know what the melt point is for the sprinker heads? I'm wondering how close/how hot an effective system needs to be to the fire itself. Would a system on the 16' ceiling be effective? or should I also have water outlets in each shop area??



You sound like you have a lot of experience and knowledge about these systems, do you have a suggested book to read on the subject?



Thanks again, I guess I need to add another project to 'the list'



Greg L

 

[WadePatton]

Fantastic! Shop design thread, I'll be back in a minute--have a hot bid on Ebay to watch.



[okay, I won the bid]



Still grieving my truck crash from yesterday, so this shop thread is a great diversion. If I had the shop now, I'd put the poor injured beast in there with the heat on.



Now to Build a Shop. (pauses to pour a Guiness)



I've been all caught up in the Tool side of the equation (grunt, grunt). Forgot about the dang simple basics. Heck I'm not even positive on the building type-pole barn vs. all metal.



I have several auto service professional buddies, but only one of them built his own shop. He started with four bays and has already added two. He says build it as big as possible, but I'm still looking at only 30x40 - 40x50 or so. I'll be surveying those folks on basics as have been brought up here. One guy has the ultimate work bench-heavy steel with 4" lip in back and 6" in front. Another good bench I've seen is an old bowling lane-hard to clean though-I'd metal cover it. I rigged a shop with PVC for air- but I have heard of lines getting caught and pulled and creating the plastic bomb affect.



Now my shop HAS to have a 10,000# lift, air, steel bench, fabrication area, sink/toilet/urinal. It will also have skylights, insulation, waste-oil furnace, 200amp service. Major tools/equipment include oxy/acetelyne rig, TIG welder, turning lathe, press, drill press, belt sander, bench grinder, 6" vise, engine hoist, transmission jack, and more.



I have a pretty good assortment of hand and air tools, but will probably buy a large Crapsman outfit to fill in some of the holes. Need a big toolbox too.



Guy down the road has a guesstimated 40x120 shop. He's the second owner. They say that the wife of the man who built it left him over it. I'll go check it out.



Tire shop nearby installed a waste oil heater. It burns anything thinner than 50wt oil, including transmission juice, hydraulic oil, motor oil, kerosene/diesel, etc. I say you could thin gear oil with diesel and burn it no problem. Nothing like free fuel and waste disposal at the same time.



Used lifts are available around here, so there's another money saver. And thanks to info found here, I'll have a zillion outlets and lights galore.



What did I forget?

 

[Scot]

You can get different temperature ratings on the heads, it just depends on the hazard and application. Seems like the standard ones are 165*. Normally spacing is on a 10' grid. A dry system uses an upright head and a bit of slope toward the drain so that you can drain all the water. A wet system can use either, but typically uses a pendant head.



A 16' ceiling should not be a problem. The heads are usually about a foot from the ceiling. It is recommended that flamable stock should be >18" from the ceiling or else you can have stuff burning above the water spray pattern.



As far as info, I would not wish on anyone to have to read the NFPA code book for sprinkler systems. You would have to if you got a sprinkler/suppression license or maybe were in a Turkish prison.



I am not at home right now, but there is a company called Firefighters Book Store and they have should have some good books on the subject. They have a website. It will give you a working knowledge of the system. Actual engineering and installation would best be done by a sprinkler company. If you are under a building code, you would have to. The pipe sizes and lengths are all balanced to get even flow out of the first and last head.



I am a firefighter by trade and work for a fire alarm company the other 40 hrs a week. We primarily do commercial alarm inspection/repair/installation. We also install and service some suppression systems. About the biggest thing I have done on sprinkler systems is to raise or drop heads and reset risers.

 

[Will24]

I have had the privledge of reading both the NFPA guidelines book and the BOCA books, fun fun reading





-Will

FFI,FFII,VRT,SLT LARAMIE,XLT LARIAT

 

[drees1]

I have a 60 x 84 shop back in Ohio that I built in '96. I'm renting it out now. My next one is going to have a pit in the floor to get under cars and trucks quickly. I'm going to cover it with steel plate when not needed.



A steel building is the only way to go. No wasted space and fire resistant. Very easy to attach stuff using self drill tap screws. Have an architect size up one of the main members so you can carry an overhead hoist load.



I had a single 10 x 12 overhead door, and was too small for a semi truck, and barely big enough for my bus conversion coach. Have at least one door 12 wide X 14 high. That will get max legal size vehicle in. On a building the size of yours, never discount the fact that someday you may want to wheel something really big into it. Get the big overhead door. Mine is 14' at the eve and NOT tall enough. When you hang lights, etc. it is too low. Also too low to deck over to make a second level really work out. It is 18' at the peak. I have 400 watt metal halide lights on 12' centers, and think I would go back to flouresent. The metal halide is cheap to run, but the cost of bulbs and ballest is big bucks. They also take 5 min to re-start after a hot shutdown.



The best thing I ever had done was the roof was extended 14' overhang x 20' long over the overhead door. I would almost never get any weather inside with the door open. Very nice to have that, and would do it again.



Tell the electrician you want 240 volt, not 208. In most places you have a choice. The power equipment will perform better on 240. I have 600amp service and that is more than enough to support 5-6 people welding or machining. I would consider 400 amp next time.

 

[jrobinson2]

You can modify almost everything above the floor but make sure you get every thing right in the concrete! The one thing I have wanted but couldn't change later was 4 or more very strong anchors in the floor. The ones I saw had a box set in the floor with a steel cover and a large steel swivel ring. If your having it engineered I would go for at least 50 tons rating, a 20 ton jack on each side reach that. You would really be surprised how often you can use them, straightening trailer frames, body work or just tying down something that keeps moving.



Jared

 

[drees1]

Good idea on the anchors in the floor. I have an 8000 lb lathe and 10,000 lb mill and it would have made life easier to move them with floor anchors.

 

[Demon Dodge]

A lot of good ideas guys. On the lighting what is the cost/life of the metal halide vs fluorescents ? What about quality of light?

Thanks, Rod

 

[drees1]

On the lighting, I went with metal halide. You have to select the proper units for your application. Sodium light are cheaper, but they produce a very orange light. Metal halide is like at Wal Mart, pretty much neutral color and a little on the blue side. They will pulse slightly different color shades as you stare at a white surface. But if you have several covering an area, the effect is minimal. You will most likely need the "Low Bay" version as you will be less than 18' from the bottom of the light fixture to the floor. They have different configurations of reflector and lens depending on the dispersion angle needed. The bigger angle is used for lower heights and to get more overlap between lights. the low bay version is more money. I think mine were about $350. 00 plus each in '96. Mine were 12 - 14 feet from the floor to the bottom of the lens. I think that was pretty much the minimum. Within a few years of "hobby" use, I was already replacing bulbs at $50. 00 each, even a few ballast assemblies at $125. 00 each. I have the new 1" dia low energy flouresent fixtures in the adjoining office, (about 20 fixtures) and have yet to replace a bulb or ballast. Granted they are higher end fixtures, but still much cheaper than the Metal halide. When I do my next shop in a few years, I am going to run several rows of flouresent fixtures the full length of the building, right up against the roof. With an all steel building using the white blanket insulation, the reflected light will be very good and getting the fixtures up increases useable space, and the dispersion of the light is better. Also, when in an enclosed building running machine tools with auto feed, if the power fails and comes back on, the meta halide will leave you in the dark for 5 minutes, while you struggle to turn off tools or get them out of the cut!! I have had that happen enough when a storm blows through to switch to flouresent the next time. Our local utility company has rebate programs to opimize lighting on new construction. When I visited them they showed me a facility where we could test different lights against different construction finishes and determine the quantity of light needed. In a big building you can pull a lot of load on lighting, so another advantage of flouresent is you can light the area you need and quickly turn light on an off. figure on some dedicated task lights over work areas, like benches and such. In another shop, I put a few single flouresent fixtures on rope and pulleys and let them down in the high bay areas to my work. for example, I could drop a 4' fixture down under the open hood of my car or truck. Talk about a well lit engine compartment!

Hope this helps, and sorry to be so long!



Doug Rees

 

[drees1]

Sorry, didn't address quality of light. The metal halide needs to have several, maybe four, fixtures dispersing light on to a common area before the color of your background looks true and does not cycle or change. All arc type lights are suseptable to this pulsing color effect. You can buy many different style flouresent tubes to get different light color. Even ones that mimic sunlight. One thing about flouresent, they will dim over time and if you do not match the tube brand and color, as you replace them, they will look different. Not a problem with metal halide.



On the outside, sodium lights, (the orangish color ones) are among the cheapest to operate and give the best definition of an intruder to a witness. I was told this by the Utility lighting person, and by law enforcement. Unfortunately, the nicer your shop, the more people think they need to break in. (Just ask me) Use sodium outside.



Speaking of security, I would recommend Sonitrol if you can get it. It is unique and by far the best. With sonitrol, an alarm trip is silent and places a call to a dispatcher. The dispatcher uses a map, door switches, and microphones in the building to listen. They can tell who or what is in the building, and where they are. They can even inform the police as it is happening. They have control of the siren if needed. This method results in a very high rate of recovery because often the police can be there un announced while the break in is in progress. It cost about $1,200. 00 to set it up and $115. 00 every 3 months to maintain.



Doug Rees

 

[WadePatton]

darn darn darn, another something I should have thunk up first! The COOL alarm/monitoring system.



I've care much for the oldfashioned -light blinks, we call cops method. I've had problems with them.



Thanks for the lighting input. I plan on lots of translucent panels, but will need plenty-o lights too.



Florescent fixtures are usually free around here. Somebody remodels and folks like me aren't too proud to use their old stuff.

 

[Scot]

A little more on security. Security systems use 1 phone line. A legal fire system uses 2 lines. A clever thief will cut the phone lines. Cellular is available as a back up. There is also radio that is actually fairly cheap.



A nice security system would have a series of cameras hooked to a VCR on the alarm contacts. Alarm goes off, cameras roll. You could even hook it to the trouble contacts so that if, say, a phone line was cut, cameras roll. Cameras are available that look like all sorts of benign objects. Pinhole cameras can go through a hole in a ceiling or whatever about the size of a pencil. All of this can be battery backed up.

 

[lgibson]

Make sure you get exhaust ports bored into the floors or walls at every work station that vent to the outside. Have a couple of different types of lifts, 4 post drive on and twin post frame lifts. Need a fire safe bin to keep all the oil soaked rags in. A bathroom with a shower, don't want to track grease in the house. On the out side I would put a slab with a drain for steam cleaning. The drains should have an oil sump to catch the oil so it don't get passed into the waste water.

 

[CoreyPerez]

There are a lot of good posts here. I'm with you guys on the fire supression system. As a previous fire fighter (Military) my house, garage and shop will have them FOR SURE!



Here is a post from another forum, and a link to a garage. I can't believe what this guy did with his shop!







Ultimate Shop - There are a LOT of things on this garage I'm not impressed with, mostly with the design and layout, but a lot of great work and ideast to be found.



Pirate 4x4 - Sorry, some of these guys are idiots, please excuse some of the posts...



There is over 3 pages of posts, and most of them are great.



Corey