ultra low sulfer fuel

[Jgolden]

Any info on what the effect (if any) of this new "ultra" low sulfer diesel fuel on ist gen components will be?

Thanks any info.

 

[jimnance]

California has had very low sulfur fuel for some time, and as far as I know there have been no major problems. I don't think the California fuel specs as low as the new <15 PPM federal spec though.



Personally, I'm using Power Service additive just to be sure. They are supposed to be adding lubricity enhancing additives at the rack, but I'd rather be safe.

 

[dpuckett]

I had been concerned about seals in the pump more so than lubricity- I add stuff to take care of that anyway. Apparently, the aromatics in the old fuel (500ppm max) swell(ed) the seals. When new fuel (with fewer aromatics) is introduced, it shrinks the rubber in the seals, causing them to leak. It seems to be a major concern in older engines (like or VEs that could have been exposed to 5000ppm sulfur -Old Red levels) with older seals that arent up to 100% of par to begin with. I have tried to do some research, but have come up less than I had hoped to uncover. In other words, not much. I am going to get my pump redone in the near future just to be safe. It needs some refreshing anyway, and this is a good enough reason for it.



Daniel

 

[jimnance]

Seals were an issue in older engines with seals not made to deal with low sulfur fuels. When low sulfur diesel was introduced in the early nineties there was a fairly high rate of pump failure in the older 855 series (300-400 HP) Cummins diesels used in Class 8 trucks. I'm not certain what the exact rate was determined to be, but I think it was around 25%.



This was quite an issue in Kalifornia where LSD was first introduced. The failures seemed to happen fairly quickly, and within about a year it seemed like it was a non issue.



I suspect that if we've not heard a lot of reports from Californian 1st gens about their VE's dying that we may dodge the bullet. Too soon to know for sure.



Using a fuel conditioner is probably not a bad idea anyway.



I have this thing about killing (overhauling) components prematurely. Often, you get a lot of failures in the very first part of an overhauled components life. Probably a Q. C. issue, but I'd rather fly behind a proven part that's not shown signs of decay than put my $$$ into a new part that may fail. Just my opinion, but I've used this theory while operating aircraft, and I'm still here and no engine failures.

 

[cerberusiam]

Fuel systems with nitrile rubber seals will be the hardest hit. Most of those should have been weeded out with the LSD fuel that has been around for quite a while. The newer Viton seals are not supposed to effected by the lack of aromatics but the ULSD takes a significant portion of the aromatics and lubricants out to get to the 15 ppm.



If your pump hasn't been touched for a while, like 10 years, the new fuel may have an impact, but, refreshed pumps should not be effected. That said, the way the new CP3 pumps are leaking its still a guessing game and not sure anybody has a good take on what is going to happen.

 

[JLEONARD]

Yea, let's save a few noxious molecules, and drip a cup of diesel on the road every day instead.

Makes sense to me. At least it will help keep the frame from rusting.

Jay

 

[Jgolden]

My pump is untouched so I'll do a wait and see. Europe has been using the ultra low sulfer for a while, haven't seen much info from there on the topic

Always interesting to see and hear the reaction of some people when they hear that somthing as "old" as 1990 is still being used.

Seal problems would also include all rubber I guess. I suppose bio diesel would have no sulfer. Just looking for input from people with common equiptment.

My well water has more sulfer than most fuel, and I'm ok, sort of, maybe.

 

[Sri Ram]

I've run biofuel anywhere from 20-100% for the last two years with no problems. I did upgrade the fuel lines toward the rear of the engine. I figure if I do have any problems I'll rebuild the pump... with a few changes

 

[dpuckett]

My engine puts out bluish/white smoke at cold idle (<60*), and I CANT accelerate without smoke to some degree. It also has a few other symptoms of being on a downward slide. Injectors are new, valves at . 009 and . 019; new LP. The ULSD is basically icing on the cake as far as a rebuild is concerned. I wonder if the local fuel could be partly to blame?



Daniel

 

[btoscano]

I got bluish/white smoke when my timing was too far advanced. I would not let ULSD worry you too much. I am not a psychologist but it sounds like you are using it to try to justify a pump rebuild because you really want a pump rebuild? We won't know for sure for a little while because right now they are only required to pump 80% ULSD and the industry/EPA figures it will take until early fall to be fully compliant with 15 ppm. The pipelines have to figure out distribution and things like that too to ensure strict compliance with the 15 ppm.



Regards,

Brian

 

[Nate]

We are running it in the 1990 Cummins trucks we have at work. I haven't noticied anything different.

 

[Jgolden]

btoscano, ... very perceptive.

 

[dpuckett]

I am not a psychologist but it sounds like you are using it to try to justify a pump rebuild because you really want a pump rebuild?

To a point, yes. Also, because I have the cash available, it has 250K, and exhibits the same characteristics that the other truck had before the rebuild that perked it up. But I have learned more in this thread than I did in all the other research I did. For instance, I was not aware that the newer seals were already resistant to ULSD/bio.



I PLAN (subject to change with the next wind) to keep this truck for a while, and while I am redoing the rest of it, have new injectors, etc, may as well do the pump.



-DP

 

[btoscano]

Hey Daniel,



I have considered getting my pump rechecked since I had the timing cranked up way more than I thought... and was getting that bluish haze in cool weather. In fact, I was thinking of getting it done right after I installed it because it was very loud right before the 12 mm end screw vibrated loose. But the truck runs O. K. now with the timing at 1. 4 mm. The injectors were last tested to pop at 3350 psi instead of the 3800-4000 psi that the guy tested them to be in Missouri, but the local shop said there's nothing wrong with them. I say put the $$ for the pump rebuild in the bank, collect 5% interest until your pump actually fails... I used to replace parts all the time on my Mercedes diesels. But anymore I just smile that I did NOT buy this or that part for my truck, because it will probably need some unexpected $$ here or there and besides I'd rather have a big winch & bumper!!



-brian

 

[Nate]

Well... on of the our trucks died yesterday, injection pump failed. It would just crank over, but not fire up.

I guess this is the 3rd 1st gen Cummins on base that lost an injection pump in the past 2 weeks.



I can only think that it's the ULSD, which we switched over to not that long ago. Motor Pool is saying they are just old and worn, but the truck only had around 3000 hrs... and 3 trucks in 2 weeks... hmm.

 

[jimnance]

Makes me want to run ag diesel. I wouldn't care about paying the road tax. Just let me burn the stuff the truck was designed for and smells like diesel.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

My pump is untouched so I'll do a wait and see. Europe has been using the ultra low sulfer for a while, haven't seen much info from there on the topic

Apples/Oranges!



What is the Sulphur content in European Diesel as sold at the pump?



What controls exist as to no-doubt-about-it consistent quality to end user?



What differences exist between the way diesel fuel is refined, tested and transported to the end user in Europe?



GET answers to THOSE questions, then we can start making comparisons between "their" diesel fuel and ours, and relatively informed guesses as to what we might expect here on our shores - otherwise, it's just another big guessing game!



At this point, I seriously doubt ANY of us have a clue as to how their diesel fuel compares - or WILL compare to ours - at the pump!

 

[Jgolden]

Gary,Try to stay calm. I didn't claim to have answers. I asked the question. I mentioned European use because they have been using fuel that meets the new US standard for a while and someone here might have some info.



My original Post, " Any info on what the effect (if any) of this new "ultra" low sulfer diesel fuel on ist gen components will be?"



If I wanted someone to ***** at me I would have asked my wife.

 

[HRDROKN]

Apples/Oranges!

What is the Sulphur content in European Diesel as sold at the pump?

I believe that it is <50 ppm. We are shooting for <15 ppm. Not enough of a difference to matter.

What controls exist as to no-doubt-about-it consistent quality to end user?

I can't imagine that they could have anything better or worse than us At this point it is all in the lubricity additive (type, quality, etc. ) that is blended into the fuel.

What differences exist between the way diesel fuel is refined, tested and transported to the end user in Europe?

Similar methods... .





So why compare? It's not like we are going to change anything..... my . 02

 

[dpuckett]

Motor Pool is saying they are just old and worn, but the truck only had around 3000 hrs... and 3 trucks in 2 weeks... hmm.

Sounds kinda suspiocious to me. Do you guys get them rebuilt, or just put another on? I'm curious what the internals of the 3 pumps look like.



-DP