update and ? on 370's

[446]

It's been a month and a half since I installed the 370 injectors purchased on the group purchase.

When first installed, I got a pretty good increase in power with very little smoke increase . after about a week I started getting an increase in smoke and it has increased from there.

Now I get a light haze driveing normal and when I give it a bit of extra throttle and boost I'm getting a noticeable cloud. If I floor it @ boost I get a cloud big enough to cover 3 lanes.

I'm real happy with the power but I'd like the smoke to be at resonable levels.

I thought the smoke is supposed to decrease as boost goes up.

any advice appreciated.

I have the wastegate plugged and hitting about 32 lbs, temp to 1200at boost.

 

[Turbo Thom]

446:

I installed the 370B's today and was runnin the 300 hp Bosch. I have noticeable power and to my surprise the smoke is very little. I am running timing at 16 and the RPM fueling to 3100. The injector pump is fueling at 233 cc . On the power , the rear tires wanted to break lose under throttle. I am very impressed. Make sure the timing is set to burn the fuel at the proper time.



Also the boost with the 370's has increased about 8-10 lbs as far as I can tell. Under power at 70 mph I was reading 34 lbs. . I only have a 35 on the Auto-Meter. If I start developing more smoke I will let you know and you can tell me what to do then.



The things I've learned about the Cummins I have learned by mistakes, but I feel your trouble could be the timing.



Good luck.



Preston

 

[drawson]

You say that you smoke badly @ boost. Meaning when boost is up?



I have a slight smoke problem preboost But after boost is up the smoke is almost gone just a haze at full throttle.



I make 37 PSI at full throttle the only thing I can think that would cause smoke under boost would be a clogged A/F or possible the exhaust (cat) being clogged.

 

[Turbo Thom]

Drawson:

What does the 16cm give the 35HX 12cm dosen't? Is the inside dimensions the same on both? I don't know whether to go with a 4" turbo back or just 4" from the 3" down pipe. What do you think?



Preston

 

[Cooker]

The 16cm housing will decrease EGT's and increase turbo lag. With enough fueling, and AFC adjusted properly, lag might be a non-issue.



As far as the exhaust. I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on a 4" downpipe again. I know many guy that are running a 3" system that are up around 300-350 horsepower and their EGTs are manageable. I think the best addition is a 4" muffler and tailpipe.



FWIW - I spoke with a member who, on his 97 that dynoed 343 rwhp, had a 4" muffler and tailpipe. He decided to put on a 4" downpipe and after the addition of the 4" downpipe EGT's remained unchanged.



My $. 02,

-Ryan

 

[drawson]

Turbo Thom, I did the 16 CM2 housing the same day I did the 370 injectors. I took the truck to lunch that day with just the housing and the old OE 215 injectors there was some lag. But after the 370s the lag was gone. With the way I have the AFC adjusted right now I get boost at 1400 RPMs. The truck is real responsive.



Last winter I took the 16CM2 housing off and put the 12 back on so that I could get the 16CM2 housing HTC coated. I could push the EGT through the roof (1500+) in no time and the outside temps was cold (30-40 deg). THe 16 CM2 housing is worth 150+ deg drop in EGTs.



I was running a 3" exhaust system with a 4" Dyno max bullet until June this year. The Jardine 4" exhaust dropped the EGTs 100-125 deg. Towing my brother inlaws back hoe up a local canyon I have been able to run 8-10 MPH faster and keep the EGT under 1250.



I am very happy with the set up I have right now!!! But I think I will always have a quest for MORE HP

 

[Cooker]

drawson,



I'm just curious if you had a 4" tailpipe with your 4" Dynomax muffler or did you run the stock tailpipe with the muffler?



How are you electric fan woking now with the warmer weather? If I remember correctly you are no longer running the stock fan right?



Thanks,

Ryan

 

[446]

you hit the nail on the head DRAWSON.

I went out this morning and pulled my K&N and went for a drive without a filter.

No more smoke, more get up and go, much faster spool up, and a real sweet turbo sound like I never had before.

I've had this filter in since new and never had it clog up this fast.

I guess all that extra boost and air sucks up a lot more road grime. Come to think of it I also took out the gasket between the air box and fender a few weeks ago. I put the K&N back in but I think I'll go and get one of those moparman filters.

Thanks for the help

 

[drawson]

Here is how my old exhaust system evolved. I took off the OE muffler at about 40K and installed a piece of 4" pipe and a reducer back to the OE tail pipe. I was usings the Cat as my muffler.



At about 65K my EGTs where higher than they had been and the Cat was clogged. I lost the cat and installed the 4" dynomax bullet in it place, about a week later I had an over the axle pipe built and welded it to the OE tail pipe end which I had a 4" turn down on it. So the old system was 4" from where the cat was back although it wasn't mandrel bent pipe.



Yes I'm still w/o a belt driven fan and have towed in 100 deg weather w/o problems. On a long hill it will get up to 200 deg towing. Running empty it has never saw 190.



446



Glad to hear you have found the problem. I think any turned CTD needs more filter than the stock one, even if it is a K&N.

 

[Cooker]

drawson,



Thanks for the info. It sure sounds like there are electric fan alternatives to the Horton.



How many CFM's of air are your three fans moving when they are all on?



I don't know how you have them wired, but when empty do all three run all the time or does the truck keep itself cool enough to not need all the fans?



Thanks again for the information,

Ryan

 

[drawson]

Electric Fans

Here is how I have the fans wired.

The inside main fan(Perma Cool 18") is wired to a thermostatic switch and come on at 185 Deg. the fan is center insdie the radiator and is rated at 2400 CFM.



The A/C fan (16" slim line) is wired to come on with the A/C. This fan is mounted dead center on the A/C condenser and is rated at 1800 CFM.



The Air charge fan (8") is wired to come on when the air charge (measured at the intake) is 130 deg. This fan is mounted on the left side blowing on the intercooler and is rated at 800 CFM.



All the fans also come on by when a switch inside the cab.



Empty the main fan hardly ever runs but the but both the toher are on almost constently with the A/C running.



A replacement for the Horton? I don't know my concern is that electric high speed motors like the ones running the fan only have so much life. These electrics could fail at any time and I would be up a creek the Horton is an electro magnet and should last almost as long as our Cummins.



It is nice have the engine warm up faster in the AM w/o the reg fan and the engine is alot quieter and my milage is up about . 75 MPG w/o the fan but time will tell if this will work for good.

 

[Fred Swanson]

446, you live in a higher altitude, therefore, you will get more smoke with larger injectors. You may need to adjust your fuel plate to combat the additional fueling which is making more smoke. Or you could try a different HX-35, that spools up faster, has more boost and lowers EGT's.

 

[JGK]

Let's expand the question

I almost posted this as a new subject, but it seems to fit in this thread just as well. Forgive me 446.



Many of us have heard of the "proper" Bosch diamond B 370 injectors. There are a number of vendors offering injectors, often called Stage I, II or III (and IV, V, etc. ), or “mental”, “super mental”, full-blown, bat-s**t crazy, and so forth. The question is, what’s the difference between one vendor’s injectors of a given horsepower rating and another’s? That is, what’s the difference between Bully Dog’s Stage III and a DD Stage III, for instance? And for those with horsepower ratings equivalent to the available diamond Bs, how do they compare?



I recently rode in another fellow’s early ’98 12 valve 2500 like mine. Both have a stock turbo, a TST #11 cam plate, a 4-inch turbo-back exhaust, and a 5-speed gear box. However, his had DD Stage III injectors. I liked the performance he had (he dyno’d that day at about 300 hp), but he blew a serious smoke cloud. I’d like to more-or-less duplicate his performance, but hopefully with less smoke. I know some injectors are not as well designed as others, at least for our applications, and may result in a lot of smoke with lower hp/torque numbers. I also know that other factors can affect smoke, such as the air intake, location of cam plate, AFC setting, etc. But I’m trying to zero-in on the “best” injector for the money. That is, which injectors, say in the 300 to 370 hp range, seem to produce the best performance, as measured by horsepower increase vs. fuel burned and smoke produced? Unless the same manufacturer makes all these injectors to identical specs and tolerances, there’s got to be a difference.



What can the “collective” tell me? Is there anyone out there with some hard data? If not, can someone point me to a source for the same?



BTW: future enhancements may be Pier's new turbo, though I'm thinking I need to be ready to replace the clutch too. Maybe the turbo would be a better choice than big injectors. Any thoughts on that would be appreciated.



Finally, thanks for the ride in you quick truck, Drawson, that day at Utah's Dyno Days. Clayton's (correct name?) is closer to my set up so that's what I'm shooting for. But I've been watching your conversation with 446 here with a lot of interest since I've ridden in yours.



TIA,

Jay

 

[446]

update

I went out and got a moparguy bf filter(and it is big) and installed it last night.

I was hopeing to reproduce the performance I got driveing without a filter. The smoke at higher boost levels has all but gone,

Unfortunately I didnt get that turbo scream back that I had without a filter. . Anyways, since I had very little smoke the first week I installed the injectors and I have very little smoke now I would say the filter was the culprit and I could have just as well cleaned out the K&N filter with good results but would have had to clean it often. I did put an aluminum heat sheild between the turbo and the filter. Works good so far. I also expect the milage to go up since I've been averageing 14 in the city and always got 18 before the injector install.

If youve got too much smoke try driveing around the block without a filter. You may be surprised how restrictive your filter is.

I've been reading for three years now about how MORE FUEL = MORE POWER in a diesel, this may be true, but you gotta have air.

 

[BCFAST]

Heat Shield

446, can you post a pic of your heat shield? how did you fasten it? did you add any insulation? is it a full box, or just an "L" shape? details, man; details!

 

[446]

Nuthin fancey BC. I bought a 12"x24" piece of aluminum from Home Depot, bent it into an "L" drilled 3 holes for the gromets from the original air cleaner and cut a little off to clear the A/C tubeing, and hood. Imagine a guy with a sawzall, some aluminum plate and 2 hours and you'll get the picture.

I was trying to figure a way to put a back on it but space is pretty tight and the battery is in the way. I'm still working on it.

 

[John_P]

JGK:



I have the "correct" 370's in my 96' Dodge having gotten

them from Piers Harry when he was still at "BD. " I don't

have the part number on them but he can give it to you.

I really like mine but they do produce alot of smoke which

personally doesn't bother me.



Recently, Joe Donnelly did testing with Lawrence at "Diesel

Dynamics" on the DD stage III , "Super Mental Injectors"

as you described. As I recall, he said these injectors have

slightly less H. P. than the 370's but also don't smoke as

much. He installed them in his 12 valve and liked them.

His truck dynoed at close to 600 H. P. , but he has ALOT

more than just the injectors in his truck. Piers Harry is

the one who did all the original testing on the 370's so

I would give him a call. His new phone # is: (604) 853-

9396.



Hope this has helped you!



----------

John_P

 

[jsimpson]

I've got two PermaCool 14's side by side. Works perfectly in south Florida! And was cheaper than a new fan mount and bearing!

 

[JGK]

John_P,



I know how impressed you've been with your setup this past year. I became a member just before you had the work done so I've seen all your posts. You're lucky to be so satisfied. Wish we had a shop as competent near by.



Anyway, I may have to give Piers a call. I submitted my original post as an e-mail to Joe D. a few weeks ago but have not heard a reply - must be busy or out of touch for now.



I was hoping someone who has done a lot of serious uprates, and thus testing of injectors, might be able to offer some info. People like Joe, of course, Piers, Chris T. at Autowerks, etc. I know that different combinations of modifications will produce different results. However, I just have to believe the injectors available at a given power rating from various manufacturers will have different characteristics, and I'm hoping someone can shed some light as to which ones seem to work the best.



Thanks,

Jay

 

[John_P]

Jay:



You are doing the right thing by making contact with

Piers or Joe. I talked to Piers last week so I know he

is around.



I didn't realize you were aware of my situation with the

370's. Sorry if I seemed "redundant" in my response.

I just remember how confused I was before finally

making the decision on how to "BOMB" my truck. Piers,

Joe D. and Scheid Diesel helped me immensly! Right

now I am in the process of possibly "upgrading" to a

215 pump with all of the "bells and whistles" if you

know what I mean! I want to get over 400 H. P. !

I'm close, but not there yet.



Are you coming to Scheid Rally? If so, lets get together!

Good luck Jay! I know Piers, Joe or Dan Scheid can

help you! Keep me posted!



---------

John_P