Using Waste Motor Oil for Diesel Fuel

[John - K5AWO]

Forrest Nearing wrote on 06-20-2004 01:01 PM:

John,



could you describe your drain oil filtration setup? I'd like to make use of some of the drain oil I pile up around here! due to heavy fueling, I change my oil about every 3k miles, and I rack up the miles pretty quick, so I stack up oil pretty quick!



Forrest

Hi Forrest, your mailbox is full and can't send this to you. I have taken the liberty of posting it in General Topics because I feel that there are more of us TDR members wondering about this same topic... ... .....



Well, at the moment I am in transition to a better system.



But, what PJ (my son) and I have been doing to date is to put the WMO in a black container, place it in the sun for a few days. I like a week, to allow solids to settle out. We then use an electric inline fuel pump purchased at AutoZone to push the warm oil thru a Ford fuel injection filter. Keep the suction hose off the bottom a little bit to avoid the solids. This inline pump has a builtin (washable) prefilter. Neato.



The Ford fuel filter is very good at stopping sludge if the oil is too dirty. You will have to back flush it with gasolene to clean it out from time to time. I just reverse the filter in the line and drop the suction hose into a pan of gas and let it recirculate until the output stream cleans up.



Diesel fuel doesn't seem to have any solids in it to our experience, but gasser WMO sure does. I would avoid WMO from a gasser that has a lot of blow by. To much carbon suspended in the oil.



THE BETTER SYSTEM:

You can go to www.hydrogenappliances.com and read up on their bio-diesel conversion process using AccuSorb beads. I bought the complete package from them. Cost something like $525 w/shipping if I recall correctly.



This will allow you to really clean up WMO to diesel pump quality. Also, it will allow you to convert clean used chinese restaurant veggie oil to diesel fuel. On WVO, if you can't see the bottom of the waste oil tank, go somewhere else. Stay away from animal fat restaurants, I avoid fatty grease like the plague. Too hard on filters. They stop up quick if you use paper filters. Avoid paper filters like the plague also. The Racor 2 micron filter is the best because you can clean it. Haven't bought it yet, but will when $$ allow. That is the reason I am concentrating on WMO for now. Regular filters work just fine.



Forrest, in your situation, you are a prime candidate for bypass oil filtration. You could pay for it very fast with extended oil drain cycles. I would be willing to bet that IF your oil stayed visibly clean, you would use it beyond 3,000 miles. With the price of oil, you would break even in about 3, maybe 4 changes with a by-pass oil filter. Add in the extended oil change cycle and it will break even in terms of miles driven. I would venture that you could reach that break even point in 15,000 miles. I think even less. Give it some hard thought.



I personally am going to add a by-pass oil filter on the next paycheck and then obtain oil analysis until I find the "sweet spot". Here in Phoenix with the warm to hot weather all year, I am thinking 10,000 miles or more per change is not unbelievable. I should think that with you keeping the engine oil warm 24 hours a day you would experience longer oil change cycles.



I hope there is some food for thought here.



-John

 

[John - K5AWO]

After thought... PJ and I just discussed taking the 30 gallon oil drum we are using for our WMO storage tank and weld three 1/4 inch pipe collars on the side spaced:



At the bottom (to drain off water & sludge) This valve might need to be 3/4" or bigger??

3" above the bottom

6" above the bottom

9" above the bottom



We are installing ball valves on each of the collars and a nipple to fit the suction line hose.



We will open the bottom valve first and drain a small bit into a plastic container for inspection. If we don't like what we see, we go up to the next valve and repeat.



Where we get oil with no solids, we start pumping thru the filters.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

I'm currently testing extended oil drain intervals along with the use of Delo 400 and my Frantz oil bypass system - past statements by oil "experts" indicate plain dino oils in a decently maintained engine in good operating condition will go about 32K miles and still maintaind proper lube qualities. I figure that use of a good bypass filter, along with normal filter changes and required added oil to make up for what is lost in filter changes will keep the oil additive package and engine protection well in hand.



My oil maintains a new appearance in regards to clarity if I change the TP cartridge in the Frantz every 2500 miles or so, and if the oil analysis at 5000 miles shows good results, will go for another 5000 on the same oil - it's at the 5000 mile mark now, so time to send in a sample, and will post results when they return.



I expect at least 15,000 miles is doable - perhaps more - will wait for results, and then decide.

 

[HEMI®Dart]

How are the exhaust emissions when burning used motor oil?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"How are the exhaust emissions when burning used motor oil?"



Well, I wouldn't want to do it myself - too little to gain in relation to what we might foul up - but as I recall, usual recommendations call for about 10%, or maybe a gallon of waste oil per tankful of fuel - on a non-catted engine, probably not TOO significant, tho' carbon and other deposits in the combustion chamber and valve surfaces might become an issue over a period of time.



Just not worth it in my opinion...

 

[John - K5AWO]

The following associated thread started out as "Oil Change Frequency" but somewhere it got off topic and includes a lot of the stuff we are discussing here.



I started the WMO as a fuel additive to get more on topic.



See http://turbodieselregister.com/foru...3&perpage=40&highlight=waste oil&pagenumber=1 for comments made there on WMO use.



The general concensus from the reading I have done on those who do use WMO in their fuel tank is that it hasn't damaged their engines.



My son PJ and I have not noted any additional smoke in light duty driving. Both of our trucks are bone stock except for moving the lift pumps to the tanks. Both are 98 24v 3500 w/4. 10 gears.



Our primary concern is the extremely high fuel costs for diesel in the Phoenix metro valley. By our standards, it is insane. By European standards, it is dirt cheap. I suppose everything is relative to your experience.



We will continue to use WMO under clean conditions. I don't believe in dumping gasser WMO in the tank w/o having first gone thru the filtration process I mentioned earlier in this thread. It might be okay, but I just can't believe that a lot of carbon sludge can be healthy for the VP44.



In the FWIW department, the engine sounds smoother when using oil blended with the diesel. Not being a chemist, I am assuming (that word again) that it is because oil has a slower flame front, thus reducing the explosion intensity (knock). Either that, or my sinuses are so stopped up my hearing has gone away.

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well, for sure, it seems a waste to not attempt to find ways to conserve oil products, whether by lengthened oil drainage intervals, or what you are doing - but I'd sure want to be absolutely certain the used oil was as clean as practical, especially when used in a 24 valve engine. Running it through a filter such as you have, or one of the sub-micron types like mine would seem a must.



But of course, if you spend lots of time getting it pristine, might as well put it back into the crankcase!

 

[John - K5AWO]

If we can keep it that pristine Gary, why should we take it out of the crankcase at all?

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

YUP = my point EXACTLY!

 

[Ralph Wood]

Originally posted by Gary - KJ6Q

I'm currently testing extended oil drain intervals along with the use of Delo 400 and my Frantz oil bypass system -



It's a matter of filtering as far under one micron as you can and adding enough new oil to keep the additives up and the soot that is too small even for the submicronic filters diluted down to a safe level of about 1%. If I could get all of the soot out of the oil in my diesel Ford truck the oil would look like the oil in my Camry Toyota.

My old Mazda diesel pickup needed a lot more filter changes than the much larger Ford truck. The Motor Guard is the easiest to change of the submicronic bypass filters so has the advantage if it has to be changed often.



Ralph

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

Well Ralph, it still only takes me about 30 seconds to change my Frantz TP filter element - yours must be REALLY fast, but shucks, I'm retired, so a few extra seconds isnt really TOO important at this point!



As to oil cleanliness, after 5000 miles, my oil still looks clean and clear as new, so I must be doing somethong right - but still must remain alert to oil analysis issues that MIGHT show problems not evident merely by how clean the dipstick looks!



It will be interesting to see if extended oil drain intervals with dino oils will be as effective and do-able as what the synthetic oil users have been doing - but with FAR lower cost oil...

 

[Jeff H]

I did the motor oil thing a few years ago. Didn't gain a thing by doing it. Lost mileage,Power down,Plenty of black smoke.

All you end up is buying more fuel for lower mileage.

A gallon sounds like an awfull lot.

Just remember diry oil usually has some metal in it. Not good for the $3500 injection pump.

I used new oil. Had no use for so I tried it.

I would rather burn cooking oil. Were gonna have to some day anyway.

 

[A Johnson]

From Fleetguard Website

FYI. I Copied this from the service bulletin Fuels for Cummins Engines at the Fleetguard website.



"This section presents the effects of blending fuels with used and new lube oil, other fuels, and with gasoline,

gasohol, or alcohol.

There are two different types of fuel blending processes referred to in this section. The first is the blending of

used engine lubricating oil to reduce fuel costs and to aid in disposing of used engine oil. This section also

discusses the blending of fuel and engine oil in on-highway applications. The second is the blending of

8/21/2003 9:35:12 AM

heavier fuels with lighter fuels to lower the wax content, cloud point, and pour point, and thus improve cold

weather operation. In addition, the effects and hazards of mixing alcohol with diesel fuel are discussed.

Blending Fuel and Lubricating Oil for On-Highway Applications

Used engine lubricating oil can be blended with fuel using the Cummins Lube Oil Blender, Part Number

3376317 (110 volt, 60 Hz) or Part Number 3376362 (220 volt, 50 Hz). This process can be used to

supplement fuel supply as well as provide a means of disposing of used lubricating oil.

To blend used engine oil with fuel, follow the instructions provided with the Cummins Lube Oil Blender.

Two rulings by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) affect the practice of blending

lubricating oil with diesel fuel in the United States. First, on September 10, 1992, the Office of Solid Waste of

the United States Environmental Protection Agency determined that used lubricating oil was not classified

as hazardous waste. In addition, the blending of used lubricating oil with diesel fuel for burning in diesel

powered vehicles was determined to be an acceptable method for disposing of used lubricating oil (57

Federal Register, R 41583, September 10, 1992). Second, beginning October 1, 1993, diesel fuel used in

motor vehicles, as defined by the EPA, in on-highway applications must contain less than 0. 055 percent

sulfur by weight (Mandated in Section 211 of the 1990 Clean Air Amendments; 57 Federal Register, P.

19535, May 7,1992). Fuel blended with lubricating oil must also meet this specification.

Cummins allows the blending of lubricating oil with fuel used in their engines, except those equipped with an

oxidation catalyst, often referred to as a catalytic converter (such as 1994 M11's and 1994 C8. 3's used in

urban transit buses, and 1994 B5. 9's and C8. 3's used in automotive applications). Cummins permits a

maximum of 5 percent used lubricating oil to be blended with fuel. This helps to reduce operating costs and

aids in the disposal of used engine oil. The blending of new lubricating oil to raise viscosity is also

permissible. This helps to increase the viscosity of lighter fuels to acceptable levels. Cummins'

recommendations for the blending of lubricating oil with fuel used in its engines have not changed; however,

if blended fuel used in motor vehicles, as defined by the EPA, in on-highway applications exceeds the

maximum sulfur content, United States federal law has been violated and penalties can be assessed. To be

sure that blended fuel complies with the law, the following procedure must be followed. Both the diesel fuel

and lubricating oil must have their sulfur content measured by a qualified laboratory using the testing

WARNING

Some state and federal agencies have determined that used engine oil can be

carcinogenic and can cause reproductive toxicity. Avoid inhalation of vapors,

ingestion, and prolonged contact with used engine oil. If not reused, dispose of in

accordance with local environmental regulations.

CAUTION

Engines equipped with an oxidation catalyst must not use fuel blended with

lubricating oil. The lubricating oil causes deposits in the catalyst which will plug the

catalyst and possibly cause higher emission levels and reduced engine performance.

CAUTION

Do not blend more than 5 percent used lubricating oil with the fuel. Do not blend

other used oils with fuel, such as transmission fluid, gear case oil, and so forth.

Page 9 of 31 Fuels for Cummins Engines

8/21/2003 9:35:12 AM

method specified in ASTM D2622 (American Society of Testing and Materials Standard, or ISO 4260). Once

the correct blend factor has been determined, multiply this by the volume of fuel to be blended. The result is

the amount of this oil that can be blended with this fuel and remain within legal limits. Similar restrictions and

processes must be followed worldwide where regional or national regulations can impose such sulfur limits.

As an example, consider 50,000 gallons of fuel with a sulfur content of 0. 04 percent by weight and

lubricating oil with a sulfur content of 0. 5 percent by weight. Of this oil, 450 gallons can be blended with

50,000 gallons of this fuel and remain within legal limits for sulfur content in the United States. Margins must

be allowed for measurement errors. "



Page 10 of 31 Fuels for Cummins Engines

 

[jwgary]

Great info

Thanks for all the info straight from the horse's mouth. I looked at the Cummins lube oil blender and it looks like something that is too big to run on board. I seem to remember when I first joined the TDR around 2000 that there was a vendor who was selling a product that would slowly take a small amount of our lube oil and blend it with the fuel. Instead of changing oil, you would just add oil to the reservoir and change your filter every once in a while. Does anyone remember who made this product and how much it costs to buy?

 

[A Johnson]

Cummins has a system like that, it is called Centinel. I don't think it is adaptable to the Chrysler ECM, I could be wrong. Used mostly on Hwy trucks and some Industrial engines. Allows for extended oil drain intervals by burning the used oil. A search of the Cummin website should turn up some info. I think it is pretty steep as far as price goes.



A Johnson

 

[keimmmo]

IMHO you guys are making this too complicated. I have burned WMO for years and hundreds of thousands of miles. You have to do it cheaply or it isn't practicle. I use a filter system that uses used automotive oil filters and a gravity feed. I carry the WMO in quart and gallon bottles. I just add some when I add fuel to maintain my desired ratio of fuel to oil. It is just a little above stone age technology, but it works and is economically practicle. Remember, the factory fuel filter is designed to remove any harmful solids from the fuel. If the WMO is too dirty, you will plug filters quickly, which costs money. But, with a properly maintained filter system abrasive particles are not a problem to the injection system.



Steve

 

[John - K5AWO]

Originally posted by keimmmo

IMHO you guys are making this too complicated. ... ... . But, with a properly maintained filter system abrasive particles are not a problem to the injection system.



Steve

Good point Steve.



What do you consider to be the max ratio of oil to diesel?



I have run 50/50 so far on a couple of tanks. Just curious as to how much higher it "might" be pushing the injection pressures?



Would not some bigger injectors keep the pressure under control and relieve the injection pump of some hard work?

 

[keimmmo]

I have never tried to find the maximum that I can burn. I also get quite a mixture of oil... anything from thin multiweight oil to fairly heavy straight weights and some ATF. I like to put in a gallon of WMO with a 20 gallon fill in the '01. I add only 2 quarts with a 20 gallon fill on the '92. It smokes NOTICEABLY if I run it much heavier! I have never had enough oil in the fuel on the '01 to make it smoke. I do not make rocket science out of this! A little more or less is fine!



Steve

 

[John - K5AWO]

I have never had any smoke with my 98. 5 either. For the time being I am going to be happy with 25-50%, depends on what is in the WMO barrel at my son's shop.



25% to 50% reduction on fuel costs, AND, not having to make those trips to the waste oil dumping station make a lot of sense to me.



Besides, I believe is the green earth policy

 

[Gary - K7GLD]

"Besides, I believe is the green earth policy"



Personally, *I* favor the "green-in-my-wallet" policy...