V10 will out pull a Cummins

[Cooker]

How about a BOMBed Cummins in a Viper.

Could you imagine the looks you'd get?

 

[JPM]

There might not be too many of us V10er's but maybe we could have section in the forum devoted to the V10's?It seems this is the only good indepth website. We could call it The "Got Any Gas?" section. #ad
#ad

 

[C Schomer]

I think Mark Chappel told me the TD's lose 1. 2%/1000' alt. . That would put a 300hp TD at 265. 88 hp at 10k'(11. 4% loss). I think a NA gasser would be down about 40% but not sure. I know I have to derate gas appliances 4%/1000'for the thin air. A guy at work bought a new 96 V10 just for fun - not to tow or haul anything. He got 9-9. 5 in the winter and maybe 11. 5 in the summer. He sold it cause it wasn't so fun for long! I passed lots of V10's when mine was stock but those guys don't try too hard because of what their mpg will do. I do know when the 460 FMC's are trying tho - those guys always screwed with me when I had smallblock gassers. I passed them like a train passing a cow when my TDC was stock!! Craig

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97 3/4Ton, 2WD, 5SP, #11 Plate, AFC kit, 14 Housing, AF942M Air filter, Gutted Cat, 4"From Turbo, Airlift, Shortened Frame, Custom Bed, HEY FORDBOY POWERSTROKE THIS!

 

[Frank J. Lloyd]

Originally posted by James P Murray:
There might not be too many of us V10er's but maybe we could have section in the forum devoted to the V10's?It seems this is the only good indepth website. We could call it The "Got Any Gas?" section. #ad
#ad

Wait a minute, better idea. If you have a gas engine and want to talk about it. Go to the "other" section or better yet, have a gas engine website being that Turbo DIESEL Register does not include gas.



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2001 3500 4x4 H. O. 6 speed 4. 10, SLT, Cab and Chassis, 163" wheelbase western hauler stake bed 3" straight pipe, silencer ring AWOL, boost & pyro gauge, K&N, Geno's one touch oil valve, Cobra 29 bombed, Halogen backup lights, cargo bed loading area flood lights, 6" driving lights, underbed boxes, pacbrake
ready to bomb
Big Red is ready to roll!

 

[Wiredawg]

Guys:

Can't say how a V-10 stacks up against Cummins, since I never even bothered to check. I have had such bad luck with my 96' gas Ram, that I will never buy another "Dodge" built engine. #ad


Even though I think the Ram is the best looking trucks built, the Cummins is really the only reason I bought another Dodge.

I want to buy a crew cab Dodge if/when they offer it, but I will never buy one if Cummins is not under the hood.

My two cents,

Wiredawg

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2000 4X4 SLT QC 8' bed; 6 spd, 3. 54 ; BD exhaust brake and 4" exhaust syst; TST PM2; Airlift Super Duty rear air bags; RS 9000 shocks; pyro/boost gauges in 2 gauge a-pillar mount; back preasure gauge mounted under dash; KN air filter; Brown's Welding brush/grill guard, rear bumper & headache rack; nerf bars and aluminum roll top rear cover, Warn front receiver and Hadley air horns, 20K Reese hitch.

 

[Runaway]

Based on what I experienced last summer pulling with some of them 10ers, if both rigs were running w/cruise control on with the same load and you start up a grade, the 10er would drop behind. The 10er's ussually would make a run for the next grade (hill) we were approaching.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

Originally posted by Cooker:
How about a BOMBed Cummins in a Viper.

Could you imagine the looks you'd get?

cooker , i'm trying to figure out how to squeeze a BOMBed cummins under the hood of my 69 superbee ... #ad

 

[Deezal Man]

Anyone have a different view?

As a matter of fact, I do.

I assume we all know that Diesels have never been known to be HP monsters... by nature.
By the same token, They have always been the clear winners over Gassers in terms of Torque.

To put things in perspective, we know that HP is a measure of how quick something can be done. Torque is a measure of how MUCH can be done.

Sorta like comparing a sprinter to a weightlifter.

Now, lets look at the stats:
The V10 is an 8. 0L pushing 310HP/450lb ft of torque.
The Cummins is a 5. 9L pusing 230HP/460lb ft of torque. . (non HO version)
The Cummins HO pushes 245HP/505lb ft of torque.

Since HP=Work x Time, the one with most HP wins. So,Yes it would appear that the 2. 1L advantaged V10 is a true hill race winner. As it should be considering its 80HP and additional RPM advantages.

What is not spoken about in that article is the fact that our beloved Diesel is only a 5. 9L pusing 10 more lbs ft of torque than a 8. 0L. Using less fuel to do so, @ half the RPMs. And it will outlast its counterpart by at least a factor of two or three.

So who is the true winner? Guess it depends what you want from a truck. .

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98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC 285-75-16's on Alcoa's. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.

 

[Jeff H]

Remember that when these Cummins diesels go to Dodge they are derated. (meaning its like sticking a 2x4 behind the go pedal)
The Cummins engine has an rv spec of around 600 to 700 ft lbs of torque from Cummins. Now that is true stock to me. If Dodge didn't derate these Cummins it would walk the dog on the v10. I'll let you decide what is stock.
Set these 2 engines on the dyno. Let them have all the fuel that they can handle. Whos gonna break first. I'm betting on the v10. While the Cummins keeps on running on into infinity.

 

[JPM]

Frank J.
Sorry about the request for a little V10 section,but could'nt you just stick us in a corner or something? After all we all have the same problems; pulling(or wearing) the rest of the truck apart!
Mr. Deezal.
No doubt it the Cummins will last. But I sold my '91 when IT wore out.
Jeff.
Why are they derated? Hmm... Maybe somebody should make a $60,000 pickup. It could last forever or until you got really sick of it!

 

[Barry]

I am puzzeled. If the V10 has 300HP and has a Auto trans, why do they have to DERATE the Cummins to put an Auto behind it? Hello? The other thing I have noticed in this thread is folks talking about towing and lack of power. I HAD a 2000/3500 6spd. with 354s. I never was so disappointed in a truck. It would not pull. So I put a $2,000 Banks Kit on it. (I know better now)It helped a lot. But the truck still was not right for the job I was doing. I sold the truck after seven months to another TDR member and bought a 2001/2500 ETH/DEE with 4:10s. Right truck, right specs. I pull trailers 65-70 MPH. Thats 2150 to 2300 RPMs. Thats where the little "Hummin Cummins" wants to run. At 65 MPH with the 354s I was at 1900 RPMS and when it would hit a pull, it would fall on it,s face. The factory is stuck in a rut with regard to ratios. They have been giving us the same 2 ratios for over a DECADE, But have changed the ENGINE,TRANS. , and the TIRE SIZE over and over. Yes, I will get flak from the 354 guys, but I bought my truck to pull RVs and this one does it better than any truck I have ever had! Just did 2100 miles in 48 hours. Bobtail to PHX, 70 to 75 @ 19MPG. Loaded coming home 65-70mph @ 12. 9MPG

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2001 2500 QC, ETH/DEE,4:10s, LSD, EZ with elbow(26. 5PSI) Boost/Pyro Guages, 4" Turbo back, BD Brake,Mag-Hytec Cover, Kleen Wheels, Energy Release, 70 gal. fuel, 20K Reese. 25,000 Miles on 01/30/01(RV Dealer)

 

[Deezal Man]

Barry, Take notice to the Torque spec's of the Cummins and the V-10. They are basically the same. Remember torque is what'll turn your driveshafts into pretzels.

Notice that you can't get the HO with an auto.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

deezal man , you can't get the HO with an auto because doge is afraid to do it with their trans setup as is , i have gone 14. 94 in the quarter launching in 4wd , my drivehafts and axles are not pretzals , i putting over 900 ft/lbs to the ground ...

 

[Barry]

Let me put it another way. IF the V10 really has 310HP and you can get it in an Automatic, but they detune the Cummins to get it in an Automatic, SOMEBODY ain't telling the truth. What does that really say about the power of the V10?

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2001 2500 QC, ETH/DEE,4:10s, LSD, EZ with elbow(26. 5PSI) Boost/Pyro Guages, 4" Turbo back, BD Brake,Mag-Hytec Cover, Kleen Wheels, Energy Release, 70 gal. fuel, 20K Reese. 25,000 Miles on 01/30/01(RV Dealer)

 

[KeithW75]

Barry,
I would have to disagree about the 4. 10s being better. I have them with 33 inch tires and I pull up to 25,000 lbs occasionally and can maintain as much speed as I would ever want to. The only thing limiting me is my sanity. I have only spent about $1200 on my truck to get it up to about 450+hp and 1200 lb ft of torque. I certainly haven't seen a a need for lower gearing. I regret that I didn't get 3. 54s.

 

[Mopar-muscle]

now i'm lost a bit on the 16 yr old thing , dc built it to live behind the old man not the foot and driving habits of the 16 yr old ... i was 16 once , bring him on , if i haven't broken it , he ain't gonna break , and i've tried , launching at the dragstrip in 4wd at 20 psi/2000 rpm , right there in meat of the 900 ft/lbs , could be more , i doubt its less .

not looking for a fight , but they 2 engines were designed to do similar tasks , although they accomplish it differently . the Cummins is just easier to get the power out of . i don't think a V10 making the same HP as the Cummins will make the same amount of torque , this is where the diesel has the advantage.

 

[KeithW75]

This is a little off the subject but I have always been careful not to use full power when in 4 wheel drive because of fear of tearing up the transfer case. But after thinking about it I am wondering if I would be just as likely to tear it up in 2 wd. I also think if you had a load on and didn't allow the tires to spin (4wd) you would break stuff much quiker.

 

[Deezal Man]

IF the V10 really has 310HP and you can get it in an Automatic, but they detune the Cummins to get it in an Automatic, SOMEBODY ain't telling the truth. What does that really say about the power of the V10?

I think you are confusing a few things here.

First, HP/Torque measurements taken from the crank will vary based upon 1 thing. . (RPMs) Measurements at this point will tell you what the engine is capable of producing at each level of RPM. (discount temps,altitude, etc. . )

Rear wheel measurements of HP/Torque reflect NOT ONLY what the engine is producing at a given RPM, but also the resultant effects of each gear ration. Naturally minus any inherent friction losses.

Therefore, the Cummins and the V10 both have the same amount of "potential ability", otherwise known as Torque. But the V10 is capable of doing it "quicker". One reason for this is due to higher rev limit... typical of a gasoline motor vs a Diesel.

Hence, HP is a measure of how much TIME is required to perform a unit of work.
TORQUE is a measure of HOW MUCH WORK CAN BE PERFORMED. .

Allow me to say it another way for those who still may be unclear. Lets say you need to lift a few bales of hay to the top of a barn.

Your HP rating is based upon how quickly you can lift the load to the top. If the load is 10 bales, chances are you will move one at a time. Therefore, thinking of it in terms of "GEAR" ratios, your working at a 10 to 1 ratio.

TORQUE is a measure of how many of those bales you can lift at one time. Each additional bale you can lift at one time decreases your ratio.

But which one will break your arms??

Torque and HP are sorta opposites. A transmission is nothing more than a manipulation of the engines ratings.

As HP rises, Torque falls. Easily proven every time you climb a hill. Downshifting increases your ability to climb the hill, but you speed decreases in the process.

SO... . Let me say it again, TORQUE is the measurement that can BREAKS THINGS... .

As far as the "pretzel" analogy... I was simply talking about what excessive torque will do. Obviously the way you are handling the 900 ft/lbs allows things to remain intact.

If your so confident... "Can my sixteen year old borrow your truck for a while. " We'll let him see how fast he can launch the truck!! After all, if everythings is strong enough... . why would you be worried??

Do you honestly expect DC to put their pocketbook on the line in this situation... . considering you wouldn't?? OR be nut to do!!

DC didn't build the truck for a guy like you... they build it for that 16 year old.

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98. 5' 24v 2500 Auto/3. 54 4x4 SB QC 285-75-16's on Alcoa's. Everything but leather. PIAA 1200's, AMSOIL dual filter relocation system, Smittybuilt Stainless Steel Nerfs, Rhino Liner(Junk), K&N air filter(For Sale)15 year AMSOIL dealer. Time permitting, Soon to include Ultra-lite Pyro,0-50lbs boost, Trans temp in the pillar. Rancho 9000's with in cab adjustment.

 

[Deezal Man]

Mopar-muscle,

Guess I'm just not doing a good job of explaining what I think. . It seems so many of us want the auto makers to build vehicles at or close to their operating limits. You feel that +900 ft/lbs of torque is nothing for the Ram... . and you may be right. MY point is that you should also know that a driveline that sees 400 ft/lbs is going to 'live' longer than one that sees 900.
No mystery or complicated math here...

This is were my thoughts come into play. DC cares about their pocketbook far more than your level of pleasure. One way to protect their product is to underpower the motor or over rate the drivetrain. Course I'm not sure they did that with the auto... but thats another story. My point is that they did it for a reason. . And that reason didn't include what most of us at TDR wanted... It evolved around what they could build for a reasonable dollar value... and provide a warranty that they hope to pay very little on. .

V10 (8. 0L)=310HP/450lb ft of torque.
I-6 (5. 9L)=230HP/460lb ft of torque. . (non HO version)

A stock Cummins wins in the torque match by a meager 10 ft/lbs. But it does it at half the RPMs.

 

[John Berger]

When I was on vacation last year I got to do quite a bit of driving through Virginia, Pennsylvania and New York. The grade on I-77 coming out of North Carolina and into Virginia is steep and long (9% I believe and between three and a half to five miles long. ) I ran that grade dragging my 10K travel trailer at 62 mph in 4th gear. EGT's topped at just under 1300. I also made sure I had a good run coming to that grade. It was the very first time I was able to truly put the truck to a real test and I had been anticipating that for quite awhile #ad
#ad
The Cummins has everything needed to accomplish what we runners like to call serious "hill work" if utilized properly. I have a stock truck, with a few mods, none power related. I almost bought the V10 because of the price, but am oh so happy with my little ol I6.

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1999 Dodge Ram 3500 Quad Cab 5 spd; 4:10 LSD rear; Mag-Hytec diff. cover; US Gear EGT and Boost gauges.
Cummins Whup *** , don't leave home without it

[This message has been edited by John Berger (edited 02-13-2001). ]