Valve Seat Damage

[buzzinghalfdozen24]

My 2005 Dodge 2500, Cummins, just had some significant damage. A valve seat went through cylinder #6 and obviously caused damage. The unique thing is, it's not my valve seat. After disassembling the engine to diagnose, I found a chunk of valve seat lodged in piston #6, and two more valve seat chunks above the intake valve on cylinder#6. But after complete disassembly of the head, I never lost a valve seat. The debris I pulled out is clearly valve seat. After some more research was done, I have concluded that I have a "recon" cylinder head, and . 5mm oversize pistons. So my engine had been overhaulled at some point. After reading the TDR for almost two years I immediately assumed a valve seat dropped once my engine started knocking horribly, however I never imagined that it wouldn't have been one of my own, haha. I'm courious to know if anything similiar to this has happened to other readers?

 

[HBarlow]

That's an amazing story. I have certainly not heard of it before.

Can you determine the source of the reman engine? If you can determine who rebuilt it you might have some success with a warranty claim with the rebuilder.

 

[Wingate]

wow... thats some really bad luck there...

 

[HBarlow]

I'm hoping Mike Wilson sees your thread and responds. Mike is Parts Manager in a big Freightliner dealership and knows more than just about anyone about parts warranties with engine builders and remanufacturers. He might have helpful advice for you.

 

[RustyJC]

How long have you owned the truck, and for how many miles? It's highly unlikely that you've had a loose valve seat bouncing around in that cylinder for more than a few seconds before the engine will self-destruct. It certainly wouldn't lie dormant in a cylinder for years or thousands of miles.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

That's true but if the particle or particles were small enough I wonder if they could have been suspended/lodged in an intake or exhaust passage in the cylinder head above the valve?

 

[NIsaacs]

You said that you disassembled the head completely. Does that mean you removed all the valves from the head? If not, you might find a different cylinder missing one and it somehow worked its way to number 6.



Or as Harvey said, it may have been stuck somewhere "lost" when the head was rebuilt.



Nick

 

[mwilson]

I'm only on my first cup of coffee so if any of this seems a little fuzzy I will edit it when I am fully awake..... :-laf



Can you tell from your research if it was a Cummins ReCon product???



If you found the oversize pistons as well it could have been a ReCon long block.



There will be a couple of issues here, first off you have no history to fall back on.

I would call a competent Dodge dealer Monday and ask them to run the VIN in order to check the warranty history.



If they don't find anything then give me the ESN and I will check it from the Cummins side to see if it was registered with them.



The distinction here even if it is a Cummins product will be who sold it and who put it in.



If Dodge put it in there under the 100,000 mile warranty Cummins will not touch it. All Cummins engines, parts, warranty engines, etc. are sold to Dodge sans warranty. Period.



Even if it was installed after the 100,000 mile warranty period by a Dodge dealer and came through the Dodge parts system Cummins still won't touch it.

Cummins will extend their sympathies but that is it.

Your battle would be completely with Dodge and Dodge alone



Now if someone other than a Dodge dealer bought that long block from a Cummins dealer, installed and properly registered it in the warranty system you would have a little better chance as long as not too much time has passed.

Also it sounds like you are doing this all on your own, so you need to document what you are seeing.

In the remote chance that a bit of workmanship coverage still exists you are at a disavantage because the vehicle is not being worked on in a certified facility.

Someone from Cummins is gonna' want to look at it so if a chunk of seat is still lodged in the piston leave it there.



Provide us with some more info, pictures etc. so we try to help you.



How many miles are on your truck?? What was it used for previous to you buying it??



In any scenario the amount of time that has passed will directly affect the chances of some help.



Mike.

 

[HBarlow]

Mike,

Have you ever seen or heard of a chunk or two of foreign valve seat being suspended in the cylinder head?

Is that even possible to run like that for some unknown period of time?

It's a very strange failure.

 

[mwilson]

I have seen damage from left over swarf, but am trying to figure out where it could have been hiding.

I going to tackle the Cummins Techs in the morning to see if they have encountered this before and where they think a chunk of seat could hang out undetected for a while.



I'm wondering if it was dropped during the ReCon process and could have been stuck in the intake tunnel of the head wedged in behind a casting??

That intake area is open during rebuild and shipment as the top cover does not come with the assembly.



That is the rectangular area to the front of the picture below that is open and has the 14 bolt holes.



Mike.

 

[AH64ID]

How long have you owned the truck, and for how many miles? It's highly unlikely that you've had a loose valve seat bouncing around in that cylinder for more than a few seconds before the engine will self-destruct. It certainly wouldn't lie dormant in a cylinder for years or thousands of miles.



Rusty

With the size of the bowl it is possible. I have seen washers go thousands and thousands of miles in gas rigs, and they don't have the huge recess.

 

[RustyJC]

I seriously doubt it given the inertial forces the valve seat (or any loose debris) would experience as the piston decelerates approaching TDC at 3000 RPM. My comment was based on my 38+ years experience in various technical positions with a large industrial engine/compressor/gas turbine manufacturer where I've done many forensic analyses on all types of failures involving engine valve seats. Of course, that notwithstanding, you're certainly free to hold a differing opinion.



Rusty

 

[AH64ID]

It does seem odd, and if I hadn't seen it for myself would not have believed it. The piece will certainly fly around a little, but as long as it stays in the bowl it is very possible to put miles on it would it touching the head.

There are massive forces, but you also have combustion and pressure keeping something planted on the compression/powerstroke and then boost pressure on the exhaust/intake stroke. There is more at play than just the forces (accel/decel) presented by the piston.

Something in the piston is more believable than a piece of debris making it thru a valve with no visible damage. There just isn't much lift on these trucks to get a piece of a valve seat thru without catching it in the valve/seat.

But that's just a general comment about things on the piston, in this case there was debris found on both side of the valve, and it's not going to go backwords!

 

[RMcKenna]

You would be surprised what will float around in a engine. About two years ago a driver pulled one of our dump trucks in the shop poping through the air cleaner so i pulled the valve covers off and i see something shiny down stuck by a push rod, so i pull the jake boxes off to get a better look and low and behold i pull out a 9/16 wrench. Now the funny thing, not that this is funny by any means, this engine was rebuilt two years prier by the local cat dealer. For two years this wrench floated around before it took a lifter and a lobe off the cam.

 

[RustyJC]

A wrench lying in the head under the valve cover isn't subject to hundreds of Gs of forces that an object sitting on/in a piston crown/cavity is. I could accept the wrench; I can't accept a valve seat (or a piece thereof) lying in the piston cavity for years or tens of thousands of miles.



By the way, boost pressure (or combustion pressure) will ultimately be applied to all sides of a foreign object that's loose in the combustion chamber since there's not a perfect seal on all sides of the object, so the effect of pressure on the object when applied to all sides of the object is nil. Even if there were some restraining effect, 20-30 PSIG of cylinder pressure during overlap is insignificant in comparison with hundreds of Gs of inertial forces.



As I said, believe what you want. I've just seen far too many engines with cylinder heads, piston crowns and liners beaten to death within a matter of seconds or, at most, minutes after swallowing a valve seat or a piece of valve head, not to mention the turbocharger damage downstream.



Rusty

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty,

No one here is talking about a piece of foreign material in the combustion chamber, we're talking about the possibility of a piece being in the cylinder head or intake.

 

[AH64ID]

As I said, believe what you want. I've just seen far too many engines with cylinder heads, piston crowns and liners beaten to death within a matter of seconds or, at most, minutes after swallowing a valve seat or a piece of valve head, not to mention the turbocharger damage downstream.

Rusty

As I said I have seen it with my own eyes, so it's not a matter of believing or not, it was a matter of seeing. Things can live for a long time in a cylinder and not even be noticed. This isn't always the case, but it certainly happens.

Anyways, as this isn't what happened here lets get back on track.

 

[RustyJC]

No one here is talking about a piece of foreign material in the combustion chamber, we're talking about the possibility of a piece being in the cylinder head or intake.

Oh, really?? Please see below.

Something in the piston is more believable than a piece of debris making it thru a valve with no visible damage. There just isn't much lift on these trucks to get a piece of a valve seat thru without catching it in the valve/seat.

I'm through discussing this subject. Carry on with your speculation.....



Rusty

 

[buzzinghalfdozen24]

I did fully disassemble the head friday evening and every valve seat is in near perfect condition, still in the head. And the debris is without a doubt a valve seat, because there was two chunks still bouncing above intake #6, about a 1/4" size peice, and on same sized peice lodged in the piston. I still find this rare and unusual, but it's not from my head. I will post some pictures soon.

 

[HBarlow]

Rusty,

Ohh, didn't see that. I don't see ah64's posts.