valves?

[SixShooter]

Are the valves on the 12 the same size as on the 24? Are the openings for the intake and the exhaust the same on these two engines? Does the 24 really a better performing engine because I know you can get more out of the 12 cheaper and easier than the 24 and on diesel fuel only.

 

[danandamy]

The valves on the 24v are smaller. They went to the 24valve set up for emissions reasons, not performance reasons. Is the 24v better performing? #ad
Shew, better be careful there, you may stir up a whole can of worms. All I can say is that my philosophy is that the more electronic stuff you add, the more stuff can go wrong down the road and the harder it will be to trace down when it does.

Daniel

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95 2500 SLT Laramie 3. 54 automatic JVC cd out of factory infinity system, southwest grill gaurd (a favorite amongst the deer population), K&N chunked, AFC adjusted, "gutless" cat, Geno's dual EGT/boost gauge, TST #6 plate slid all the way forward, AFC housing slid all the way forward, silencer ring removed
Just aquired 95 2500 SLT Laramie 4x4 automatic, innocent, stock and anxiously awaiting being defiled by bombing... .
"Don't be scared V8's, it's only a 6 cylinder"

 

[Missouri Mule]

I 'll second danandme reply.

Plus add some but not on which engine is better.

The reason the 12 valve is cheaper to increase fuel to injectors is because it is has mechanical injector pump. Yes a plate will increase fuel flow but so will adusting a few screws( but it easy and safer with plate since the screws need delicate adjustments).

The 24 valve would cost more only because of the electronic injector pump. Because it is electronic. Like the plates someone with the know how would have to design a elctronic component( chip inside, also known as black boxes... ) to alter fuel rate. Doing this invovles a lot more work (the chip has to increase fuel rate but also has to fake out the oem computers so they won't recieve a code malfunction).
Larger injectors will get more horses out of the engine and both 12 and 24 injectors should be about the same price .



------------------
Bill Thomas
Missouri Mule - 96 Wht 4X4 ST CC,5 spd, 3. 54, 8 ft bed, 1 ft high cheater boards.
99 Freightliner bl/wht FL60 ISB-5. 9 24v,215 hp,520 tq,6 spd, 3. 59 nsr,16 ft box, 19. 5 tires,Wt/gvw 11,000/23000

 

[John_P]

Jacob:

I agree with what "danandme" and "Missouri
Mule" already told you.

I too am "leery" of the electronics on the
24 valve engines, even though I have a
motor home with an 8. 3 Cummins 24 valve.

It seems as though they have had alot of
problems with the VP-44 pumps among other
things. Several of my friends have run
into problems "burning up" the pumps
after they install the "black boxes".
The VP-44 is cooled only by fuel, where
the P7100 is coooled by oil and fuel.

--------
John_P

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Red '96 4x4 2500 Auto 3. 54, TST #5, Major Pump Mods(By "Scheid Diesel") 370 Diamond B Injectors, Gov. Spring kit, AFC Spring kit, Banks Exhaust, Prime Loc, Cummins Chrome Kit,Psychotty Air Filter, Pro-Torque Converter, BD Valve Body, BD Pressure Loc, Isspro Gauges, Sendel 16" Alum Wheels w/ 33" BFGs

 

[illflem]

The 24 valve has barely proven itself with only three years, in fact it has proven to be not too reliable with it's pump problems. The 12 valve has been around long before Dodge thought of using them in PU trucks. I'm sure Cummins would have never introduced the 24 if it hadn't been for EPA constraints.

------------------
95' 25004X4,AT,Driftwood,Banks Stinger,Warn fender flairs and running boards(work truck)
95 3500,5 speed 3:54,BD E-brake,Driftwood,Banks&Psycotty,34,000 GCVW apple and tractor hauler(works harder truck)

 

[rhoads]

In general the 24 valve has poor performance/fuel ecomany compaired to the 12 valve. . and there is a few other troubles.
on the other hand, when the dust settles and the 24 valve becomes a true electronic controlled eng(INJECTOR'S ) included,it may improve. Seem's to me they took the old pump and adapted it . to catch up with Int/f-d . would love to know why they did'nt use the inline pump. Cost????
Why not unit injectors(room in head & stronger head) and a simple fuel pump as on the big rigs.

 

[DieselB59]

Actually, the ball is rolling in the right direction here. The P pump engines (94-98) do what they do as good as they do because of the high pressure that the P pump puts out. No matter what, the rotary pump cannot put out the pressure that the inline pump can, nor can it last anywhere near as long. For those without a physics degree, the rotary pumps feed fuel for all six cylinders through one valve. On the inline pump, there are six feeding six, each of which is doing 1/6th the work to get the same job done. In Europe, the ISB is running with common rail injection, which is the highest pressure injection available and is by the Diesel Industry's standards--the injection of the future. In 2003, I believe that the ISB will finally make its mark with common rail injection. Volkswagen, the leading producer of Diesel engines worldwide, has been using common rail technology for years now in Europe and the horsepower and fuel economy are second to none. And as long as the computer industry is still alive, they can and will be B. O. M. B. ed.

------------------
Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, A. W. D. Water Injection, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[DieselB59]

I heard that someone out there is running a 24 valve head on a 12 valve engine sans the electronics. Was it Dr. Performance? or James Ray?

------------------
Chris Timochko
*Association of Diesel Specialists Certified*
AUTO WURKS DIESEL R&D TEAM
1997 5sp 4X4, Rhino Linings, Espar Heater, A. W. D. HX40 turbo, ATS 3pc Manifold, BD 4" Brake, Marine Compression, A. W. D. Custom Tuned Injection Pump, A. W. D. Intercooler, A. W. D. 370B Injection Nozzles, Delivery Valves, Governor & AFC Spring Kit, Psychotty Air, A. W. D. Water Injection, NOS Diesel Kit, A. W. D. 6" Chrome Exhaust System, BD No Smoke Valet Switch, McLeod Dual Disc Clutch, Mag-Hytec Rear Cover, Cummins Chrome Kit, Optima Red Tops, Hadley Bully Horns, Hurst Line Loc, Goodyear Wrangler AT/S 305/70/16s. 15. 50@97mph on Goodyear All-Terrain tires.
****************************************************************************
Project U96 - 1996 3500 2WD racer. A. W. D. Marine Ultra Low Compression, A. W. D. Teflon-coated Pistons, A. W. D. High Lift Camshaft, Ported and Honed Cylinder Head, Intake and Exhaust manifold; A. W. D. HX40 Turbocharger, ATS 3pc Exhaust Manifold, A. W. D. Water Injection, A. W. D. Custom Fabricated Fuel System, Race Spec A. W. D. /BD P7100 Injection Pump, A. W. D. Custom High Flow Fuel Injection Nozzles, BD Auto transmission and Custom TC, Weld Draglites, Goodyear Eagle Drag Slicks, 5" Single Stack Through The Bed, Mag-Hytec on Rear and Transmission. 11. 54@115mph

 

[SixShooter]

What if you had the 24v engine with the P7100 pump? Wouldn't that give you best of both worlds?

 

[SixShooter]

Chris what do you mean by water injection in your sig?

 

[Rustymule]

As far as multiple intake and exhaust valves in one cylinder, at least on motorcycle engines, the valves are smaller in diameter BUT the combined area of the multiple valves is greater than the one. You can put more smaller valves in the circle area of the piston, thus more air and fuel, than you can one larger intake and one exhaust valve in that same circle. A few years ago, Honda experimented with oval pistons in a V-4 engine, (the wonders of CNC ID grinders) just so they could put 4 intake and 4 exhaust valves in the cylinder area. They may still be using this engine, but I stop playing that game about 10 years ago. Toooooo many $$$$$$. I am not sure of the combined area of the intake or exhaust on a 24 V verses the area of the one valve in my 12V engine but I'll bet the 24V has greater area. Thus the turbo, pump and the injectors can extract more horsepower from the same cylinder size. This is not only true in motorcycle engines, but also in high performance engines in production cars and Formula 1 engines. Fomula 1 engine designers are not concerned with smog laws. They ARE concerned with getting more air and fuel into the cyclinders. I just assumed it was the reason Cummins went to 24 valves. Just my thoughts.

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Rusty Mule 97 3500 5 Speed C/C 68,000miles 25,000# POP-UP HITCH, CAT GUTTED "MULE HAULER"

 

[illflem]

I would think that the 24v engine would be excellent with a P-7100 pump and no electronics,if it could be done.