VE pump problems

[Jluther]

I never was able to buy back my old 89 CTD or find one I could afford so I have finally just bought a VW Rabbit diesel pickup so I have something to use. The VW also uses a VE pump and I am having what I believe are pump related problems and I hope there's a pump meister out there who can help. I bought it in Cleveland saturday and the problem started in Columbus, about 130 miles later. The engine/transmission was rebuilt and a clutch installed 15k miles ago; a compression test, valves adjusted and injectors installed about 50 miles before I bought it. Here is the problem: At the same approx rpm in 1st, 2nd, 3rd gears, I get a slightly louder engine sound and a partial loss of power. The sound reminds me a little of preignition pinging on a gas engine so I am thinking that it may be something in the pump changing delivery timing. It idles fine and runs at top speed fine except for a slight bit of surging periodically. It's not like the pump cam plate springs can't keep up because problem is in the middle of the rpm band for each gear, meaning that it works fine at rpms above and below the problem area.



My buddy's 92 CTD here at work has a slightly different throttle design, I am adding this last part in case there is a pump meister out there that knows the 4 cyl VE pump. The only physical outside problem I see with the pump operation is that the lever plate just below the throttle lever (both levers share a center post and retaining nut but have separate torsion springs) is sticky. When the throttle works, that lower lever doesn't return to a fixed position when the throttle returns to home position. I suspect that the problem might be in the governor and this lever might act upon the governor. May be important, maybe not. The Bosch VE manual does not show this stacked 2 lever arrangment.



Based on previous VE pump posts I have been a part of, I hope that someone out there has some input and the moderators allow me to post this. Otherwise, I'll be buying a pump which will roughly double the value of the truck.



thanks in advance



Joe

 

[dpuckett]

Some questions:

How many miles are ont the truck? Pump? MIght try some fuel injector cleaner. Sounds like something is sticking. The VEs arent that hard to get into, just have to be careful to keep it clean, and put it back together right. ANyone else? That's all I can think of right now.



DAniel

Edit: Book didnt give any specs on timing; just said "align marks. " Went into some BS about not changing it, and having to remove the cam gear and resetting the valves or something. Sorry. Have to find it elsewhere. I would say if it runs good, and doenst have too sharp a rattle, go with it. It should sound similar to your Rabbit. the manual for my 6. 9/7. 3s I had also said the same thing about advancing the itming too much- blowing holes in the pistons, fuel system damage, etc. THink it is a case of cover your own backside. If your p/U sounds like it has a knock, I'd say it is too advanced; if it is kind of dull like the older Mercedes and VW's, I'd leave it alone.

 

[Jluther]

Thanks for the reply. I think something is sticking too which is why I mentioned the sticking lever near the throttle which may act on the governor. There's 15k on the rebuilt engine, 106k on the body, unknown on the pump. I thought about dumping a bunch of Power Clean in the tank but I have also been warned by a VW diesel guy I trust about possibly popping a hole in the piston if the timing gets off too badly. With the engine just rebuilt, I don't want to blow a hole in something else.



With the work that has been done to this before I bought it, I thought I could hop in and drive the h*** out of it for 100k to keep the miles off my 03 TDI. My other diesel Rabbit sedan was bulletproof at 190k with no pump or block work and it's still going. Should have kept it but it wouldn't haul anything.



The VW shop manual shows a thread on metric dial indicator to set injection timing on the center port of the pump. I'm sure not everyone has one of these, I don't. How does everyone else check timing? I'll do a search also but I'm just wondering in case I end up putting another pump on it.

 

[dpuckett]

You should have a bolt (plug would be a more accurate descrption) in the middle of the pump outlet, between the injector lines. 10mm, I believe. Ever VE I have ever seen has one. Of course, you have to come up with the dial indicator on your own. I would guess you follow the same procedure for timing a VE on a Cummins. Wait..... I have a Chilton book that covers your VW. Let me look it up, and I'll post the highlights.



Daniel

 

[dpuckett]

One more thing-

Does it make its stutter or whatever when you are cruising in the mid range, or only when accelerating through mid range? It could be a fuel supply problem; lift pump, fuel filter (seen them clog in 1/2 tank- just ask Steve St Laurent), etc. also seen lift pumps that only lasted 50 miles, so dont go by the "it's brand new" line. Could be a defective part.

 

[Tim1]

timing adapter

Hey joe, if you go to www.sirtools.com you will find a timing adapter for the vw pn va6015 for 25. 00 and they work good. The metric dial indicator is at www.mitutoya.com pn no. 2113f with a stem dia of 8mm for about 70. 00. This will get you where you want to be. Tim

 

[Jluther]

Thanks guys... .

In reverse order:



Daniel... thanks for the reply. The dead spot is in the midrange of the RPM band. It idles fine, runs fine ABOVE AND BELOW this dead/loud spot on each gear, runs fine at 65 mph. I would think that a clogged fuel filter would cut me completely off at a certain rpm when I starve, that is not the case because I can run at higher RPM's in each gear. I'll change the filter anyway and see what happens, the guy had a few extra and gave them to me so its a painless change.



Nothing related to the pump or fuel delivery system is new, "only" the engine, injectors, clutch, transmission, valve adjustment, etc. I am also convinced that this is in the fuel system. I've come up with a Bentley manual for the VW so I have the injection timing process if I put the new pump on.



Tim... thanks for the info. We've got a few inch indicators here at work, now that I know the stem diameter I'll see what stem diameters we have and look at buying the fixture. I can convert to inch.



I got a PM from another TDR member who said that the flyweight arm/sliding sleeve intersection is a problem area.



I have another pump of unknown quality that was given to me and I will return that one for the core if/when I get another pump. I'm taking this one apart to find the problem.



Damn thing had a fresh full tank of diesel and ran like a champ when I got it. I got boned on a Chevy truck on eBay, this VW was supposed to be my runner while I got the other one straightened out to sell. That noise you hear is me kicking myself in the a** for selling the 89 CTD to put more down on the 03 Jetta TDI.



thanks again guys.

 

[soslow91]

Not sure if this is even close to your problem and its been so long since I read anything about vw diesels I can't remember why I was reading about them,but if I remember corectly something goes bad in the cold start advance and it stays advanced after the engine is warm. From what I've read this will kill the poor vw motor in a hurry.

 

[Jluther]

Thanks soslow91... unlike the CTD, the cold start advance on a VW is like a choke on an older car, actuated by a pull handle on the dash. Sort of takes me back to grandma's Fairlane, when gas was . 49 a gallon and things was simple.



There is a procedure for checking the throw of the cable in the manual, I'll have a look at it and adjust it if required.



Did I mention that it will rev fine throughout the rpm range from idle with NO load on the engine (truck stationary)? I thought not. So the problem is engine load related. Does this change anyone's thinking??



To add insult to injury, a storm dropped a tree branch on the hood. As if it wasn't ugly enough.



thanks again everyone.

 

[Jluther]

Tinkered a little yesterday. I lied previously... . the noise is also present at idle/no load but it is not as loud.



I installed a new fuel filter, no effect.



I'll check the cold start cable today. It doesn't seem to have the same effect on the engine as it did on my 84 Rabbit.



I have ordered a rebuilt pump.



thanks