Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) Vp-44

[Herman8r]

I have just joined the elite bomber club!! And then my injection started to go bad. I have been informed by the dealer that the vp-44 failed due to pressure loss but will not replace it citing TSB 14 002 02--"DC will not warrant the pump due to the splice in the wire harness that Banks spliced into". I called Banks and the tech tells me to take DC to court!! SURE !! I do realize that I am responsible for my actions In reserching places to purchase new VP-44 pumps I found a Certified Bosch Dealer that sells NEW VP-44 with the latest upgrades for under $1200. 00 (Berge's Sales & Service--626-334-0288--Azusa, Ca) I found this at the Bosch web site-www.boschservice.com.



I have not purchased this yet but it is only a matter of time before the pump goes--hopfully not while I'm on vacation.



I am in the search for mechanical fuel pressure gauges. Any suggestion?



Herman8R

 

[TPilaske]

www.egauges.com

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Not arguing, but what is the evidence for a VP-44 failure? The dealer has been wrong (a lot) in the past. Maybe the 12,000 of us TDR members could maybe help you out here? Feed us all the data you have - including your signature (the year/model/modifications of your truck). Couldn't hurt... .

 

[Herman8r]

Kurt- the truck was starting hard between starts when warm. When I turned the key it was not the usual "instant start". It would take about 3-4 seconds before it would start. The service tech who tested the truck first tested the lift pump & then the injection pump. He stated that he has seen this before & said the seals were failing in the injection pump resulting in fuel pressure loss. He said there is no way to send this to DC as the pump wire was tapped for the Banks Otto Mind Kit & therefore voids the warranty.



Herman Radtke

 

[work2muchplay2little]

Did the check engine light come on and were there any error codes set? Did the tech check the fuel filter and fuel pressures under load and at WOT? Did he inspect the fuel lines to make sure there was no source for air to enter the lines. Did he bleed the high pressure lines? Did he check the overflow valve on the back of the injection pump? These are some of the other possibilities for hard starting, but the symptoms you describe could also be caused the the injection pump itself. Personally I would either do the above checks myself or take it to a Cummins shop for a diagnosis.

 

[Cummins Cowboy]

i thought banks claims that their products don't void the factory warranty, sounds like they are the ones that need taking to court. however i do agree with the above statements, sounds like this dealer tech is a know it all type. get a second opinion and keep us posted.

 

[Herman8r]

Kurt, The check engin lighr never came on. As for the test that the tech performed--I can not say--he did not offer any results other than what was printed on the invoice (no charge) "hard start when warm, loss of pressure = injection pump". I just picked the truck today & in the process of changing the oil. I will inspect the pump area to check for any visual evidence of "wrenching" or "testing".



Thanks for the help. I will call the dealer tomarrow and ask for the test results. They had the truck for three days to fix trans problems & overhead computer. Said they were waiting for feed back from DC regarding test that the tech performed so the tests must still be available.



As for Banks--I emailed Colin at Banks today. Will keep you posted.



Thanks, Herman

 

[EMDDIESEL]

For gauges, check out www.smokindiesel.com www.summitracing.com www.jannettyracing.com www.genosgagrage.com



I bought a complete setup from Andy at Smokin Diesel (Great guy) that was simple to install. It attatches right at the VP-44 and there is no hose fittings to make up, or anything, its already done. Just screw the hose on to the schrader fitting, mount the gauge and your done.



Sorry to hear about your VP-44 disaster. Keep us posted on what the stealer says, i am curious to know if they can and will void your warranty for having a box on your truck.

 

[juicedcummins]

Herman,

Have you ever had the reflash done for cold weather starting? It will shorten the lift pump cycle time before start up. Some of the 24 vavlves don't like too much press at start up and take a few more secs to fire.



The stealer is more than likely full of it!



Banks warranty is a Joke even with all that fancy advertising.

 

[zimman20]

Ever thought about checking the FP yourself? Could be a bad LP?

My experience with the dealer is that the mechs are checking the pressures with the truck sitting in the bay or revving it in park/neutral and that's not an effective way to check the LP pressures under throttle or WOT.



Maybe someone near you has a Briar gauge or you can get one of your own at



http://www.blackmountaindiesel.com



Or like others said, get a second opinion.



Too convenient for them to simply point to the VP44 and tell you it's bad and on your dime due to mods. Too expensive to simply take their word for it.



zman

 

[Herman8r]

I called the dealer to have them send me the test data. I can then proceed from there. I will test the LP myself. I do have a transfer pump next to the tank (Carter).



I changed my oil yesterday after I picked up the truck and I did NOT find any evidence of anyone working under the hood. All visible parts had a thin film of dust or road grime and the brass fittings on the LP were un touched. This is not to say they did not test it -- but I can't see it.



Thanks for all of the advise everyone. I will keep you posted.



Herman

 

[juicedcummins]

Do the reflash for the cold start since you have a pusher that is more than likely the prob![depending on how it is wired]



Ask Steve he can fill you in with all the right #"s on startup pres etc.

 

[Herman8r]

Pusher pump

Juiced--I scotch wired the pusher pump into the wire on the stock lift pump. (per directions form seller--I don't have their name on hand).





FYI--I talked to the service tech today to have them sent me the test results when they tested the lift pump & injector pump. He said the lift pump tested at 13 #. I asked him at WOT or idle. He did not respond. I asked him "what about the test that were sent to DC to get their imput ?" He said he did not have the equipment to test the IP !! He said it"sounds like the seals are bad!! Then I asked him " How did you send data to DC if you don't have the equipment to test the pump in the first place ???":--) No answerSomeone is full of B__ S___. I hate it when I'm lied to.



I will check into the reflash for cold weather.



This delayed starting problem does not happen everytime I start the engine. It comes & gos. First start in the AM is ok.



I will keep persisting. Thanks for the info.



Herman

 

[Huff N Puff]

In reading you last post,it sounded like you are powering two pumps on the same wire,if that is the case you may be over loading the driver in the engine processor,which may cause inadequeate power to the pump. Power to the pump is controlled by terminals 15 and 35 at the engine processor a yellow and white wire. You may also cause the whole processor to act up by over loading it. You should use the processors driver to controll a relay which in turn powers up the pumps. This way you can send a strong direct power from the battery and still have the engine processor controlling it. Merv

 

[Herman8r]

Merv, Thanks for the info. I do have the aux. lift pump wired with a relay. A fused line from the battery feeds the relay and the positive wire from the O. E. lift pump activates the relay. I believe this is the correct way.



Herman

 

[EricBu12]

Guys,

Just a little side info on the VP-44.



I just got back from the nationals get-together and we had some seminars and Q and A sesions and one of the speakers was an Engineer from Bosch.



I asked him what was the operating peramiters of the vp-44 and he had to try to convert bars to PSI but he said -2psi to 12 PSI max when running. the lower numbers are ok but too much preasure and you get damage internally. so the guys that are getting like 20 psi or more are destroying the vp44. you need 12 psi head or less to keep in spec.



I run 12 idle, 10-12 cruise and no less than 6-8 WOT and he said that was optimal and good. I also told him about We on the TDR's problem with the lift pump location... . and he said that a dual pump setup like I have that uses a 7# pump back by the tank was the way to go. He also said that even though the pump is cooled by the fuel, having the fuel being circulated back to the tank faster will not cool it more, it will cool on the demand the engine needs on towing or the ambient temp. just like the engine oil... ... This guy answered all my questions and concerns, he spoke goog english but you could tell he was from Germany.

Sorry for the long post but if you have good PSI like I said above, acording to him, youre golden. just don't get too much PSI or you damage the pump.

 

[Herman8r]

Eric -- Thanks for the info. It appears that the Banks Otto Mind System that I have may be causing excess pressure on the pump--maybe the cause for pressure loss. I emailed Banks last week but still no answer.



The local Bosch rep. offered to test my pump in the vehicle. That is my next step.



Thanks again, Herman

 

[Steve St.Laurent]

I also talked with the same Bosch engineer at the Nationals - very nice guy and very knowledgable. I was the blue group leader and took him for a ride in my truck after the seminars because he mentioned that he had head of "400-500hp VP44 equipped trucks - he enjoyed the ride immensely and I let him know that my truck is mild compared to many. He said basically the same thing both in the seminar and to me that 11 psi is the max pressure (slightly different than the 12 psi that you heard) for the VP44. This was very different information than what I've gotten previously from both Dodge and Cummins engineers. He pointed out on the exploded diagram of the VP44 where additional wear would happen with high fuel pressures which is basically the lift pump inside of the VP44 (I don't have a picture handy to show it). I mentioned that the latest rev lift pump straight from D/C and Cummins is producing 16-17 psi and he didn't have any answers on that. I'm going to continue running where I am (20 psi on the high side and a minimum of 16 psi at WOT) which is where I've been for 45,000 miles now and see what happens over the long term.



I haven't had a chance to post this information because I've been back and forth to doctors since I got home from the nationals and found out yesterday that I'm going in for surgery on tuesday on my shoulder. Right now the information I've gotten is very contradictory. The guy at the nationals was by far the most knowledgeable person I've talked to on the VP44, however his information on the peak spec on fuel pressure counterracts whats coming out of the factory now. Everyones going to have to make their own call on this one!!



Heman8r - the Banks system doesn't do anything for the feed pressures to the VP44. It definately increases the fueling rate between the VP44 and the injectors beyond factory specs like all of the fueling boxes do, but doesn't do anything to lift pump pressures. One problem you will most likely have with a pusher pump setup or anything that raises the fuel pressure to the VP44 while cranking is what you've seen - a hard to start problem. On my truck if I turn the key on and wait for the pumps to shut off before cranking then it fires right off just like it did stock. If I try to crank without the pumps shutting off then I have a hard start problem just like you are having. The VP44 needs to see less than 7 psi on cranking (which the ECM does by cycling the stock pump on and off - but it's probably too fast for a relay to cycle as well) otherwise you can get into a hard start condition.

 

[Herman8r]

Steve-Thanks for the info. I have not tested my pressures as of yet on the lift pump or any where else. I am waiting for the gauges.



Good luck with the shoulder operation. I hope all goes well.



Herman

 

[RADdodge]

Hey Eric – that news from the Bosch Engineer was startling. There are too many conflicting stories that lead us down errant paths. I don’t see how excess pressure and fuel would cause damage, especially with the pressure regulator and fuel flow back. I would have to think that a Bosch Engineer should know. It would be nice to get an official answer on that question before those of us with “excessive pressure” on the inlet of the VP-44 damage an otherwise good and expensive injection pump!