Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) VP44 pump durability with new in-tank lift pump

[Jack in Alaska]

Last Sept. I had my lift pump replaced with the new style in-tank model. 200 miles later, at Industrial Injector Service, I had my VP44 replaced as it had coded out (also worn out).

Is there any history on the longevity of the VP44 when it is being supplied by the in-tank pump???

I was told at Ind. Inj. that the lift pump pressure from the in-tank set up was not high enough for the VP44 to live long.

Dodge says it is not all about pressure anymore but it is about volume pumped.

What is a country bumpkin like me to do with conflicting info like that?? Oo.

 

[nps]

Last Sept. I had my lift pump replaced with the new style in-tank model. 200 miles later, at Industrial Injector Service, I had my VP44 replaced as it had coded out (also worn out).

Is there any history on the longevity of the VP44 when it is being supplied by the in-tank pump???

I was told at Ind. Inj. that the lift pump pressure from the in-tank set up was not high enough for the VP44 to live long.

Dodge says it is not all about pressure anymore but it is about volume pumped.

What is a country bumpkin like me to do with conflicting info like that?? Oo.

Dodge has re-designed a pump originally designed to feed the HPCR CP3 pump, and put it into the 2nd gens. They have abut a year or less on warranty coverage for all 2nd gens, so their interest is in minimizing their warranty costs between then and now. Dodge says "don't worry, this pump is good and its not about pressure, its about volume. "



II rebuilds pumps. II claims they regularly talk to Bosch, the designer of the VP44. II claims Bosch tells them the VP44 WILL be damaged with less than 7psi inlet pressure due to deformation and rupture of seals between the low and high pressure side caused by excessive movement of the diaphragm.



So it comes down to who do you believe? What is II's motivation to coverup? DC's is obvious. But the bottom line for me is basic physics and fluid dynamics. With all other things the same in the delivery path between the tank and the VP44 (except the pump ), how can volume go up and pressure go down at the same time? - IT CAN'T! What DC is peddling is called junk science.

 

[DonS]

They have abut a year or less on warranty coverage for all 2nd gens, so their interest is in minimizing their warranty costs between then and now. Dodge says "don't worry, this pump is good and its not about pressure, its about volume. "

If you're referring to the warranty on the VP44, some 2nd gens likely have a lot longer than a year left.



According to the "Warranty Information" booklet I received with the truck, the warranty on my injection pump is good until Oct 2008 (or, it would've been on a stock truck).

 

[Gregg Mig]

Are you saying stay with the stock lift pump location. My truck is currently at the dealer because I have the dreaded po216 code, I checked my lift pump preasure and I have about 8-10 lbs at idle and it drops to 3-4 during load with a full tank ,with less than a half it drops to 0. I do not want an intank pump if it does not meet the pressure requirements of the vp. Gregg

 

[nps]

If you're referring to the warranty on the VP44, some 2nd gens likely have a lot longer than a year left.



According to the "Warranty Information" booklet I received with the truck, the warranty on my injection pump is good until Oct 2008 (or, it would've been on a stock truck).

The engine warranty is 5 years or 100K miles. If you took delivery of an 01. 5 in Oct of 2003, then you're good till Oct 2008. But I doubt there are many like you out there - they musta lost your truck on the back of the lot for a couple years.

 

[DonS]

The engine warranty is 5 years or 100K miles. If you took delivery of an 01. 5 in Oct of 2003, then you're good till Oct 2008. But I doubt there are many like you out there - they musta lost your truck on the back of the lot for a couple years.

My Warranty Information booklet looks like this:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=16192&width=4



According to the underlined/circled part on the left, my 5yr/100k Cummins Diesel Engine Limited Warranty started at the end of the 3/36 Basic Warranty period. I took delivery in Oct 2000. I hit 3 years (but fewer than 36k miles) in Oct 2003, triggering the start of the 5/100 engine warranty.

 

[nps]

Good luck getting DC to agree with your interpretation.



What it means is that the 3/36 covers the engine too. When the 3/36 stops, the 5/100 kicks in. Both the 3/36 and 5/100 are measured from the delivery date by the dealer to the first owner.



With your interpretation you'd also assume a 136K mile warranty period too huh?

 

[Rattlin_Ram]

My Warranty Information booklet looks like this:

https://www.turbodieselregister.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=16192&width=4



According to the underlined/circled part on the left, my 5yr/100k Cummins Diesel Engine Limited Warranty started at the end of the 3/36 Basic Warranty period. I took delivery in Oct 2000. I hit 3 years (but fewer than 36k miles) in Oct 2003, triggering the start of the 5/100 engine warranty.

I'd be willing to bet that if you give DC a call, then your warranty expired in Oct 2005... .

 

[DonS]

Good luck getting DC to agree with your interpretation.

It's not an "interpretation". It's a plain-English reading of explicitly stated terms.

What it means is that the 3/36 covers the engine too.

Well, yes. The 3/36 does cover the engine. That's a given.

When the 3/36 stops, the 5/100 kicks in.

Yes. When the 3/36 ends, the 5/100 begins.

Both the 3/36 and 5/100 are measured from the delivery date by the dealer to the first owner.

That's not what my booklet says. Mine says the 3/36 "everything but tires" warranty begins at delivery, while the 5/100 engine warranty begins at the end of the 3/36.

With your interpretation you'd also assume a 136K mile warranty period too huh?

If I'd hit 36k miles before 3 years, then yes. The 5/100 would've begun at that time/mileage.



If DC had intended the Cummins Diesel Engine Limited Warranty to run concurrently with the 3/36 Basic Warranty (that is, beginning at delivery), they would've said so. They did put such language into the terms of the 3/36:

2. 1 (D) When It Begins

The Basic Limited Warranty begins on either of the following dates, whichever is earlier:

* the date you take delivery of the truck​

The 5/100 section of my booklet contains no such "date you take delivery" language.



I don't see how there could be any other "interpretation". The booklet says the engine has a 5/100 warranty, which begins at the end of the 3/36 warranty. It certainly does not say the 5/100 begins at delivery. In other parts of the booklet, DC says that other warranties (e. g. 2. 2 "Corrosion Warranty", 2. 4 "Emission Performance Warranty", 2. 5 "Federal Emission Warranty - Heavy Duty Truck") start when the 3/36 begins, but such language is lacking from the Cummins engine warranty - in fact, it says something completely different. Had DC intended the same start point for the 5/100 warranty, they would've included language like this in section 2. 6 (A).

 

[nps]

What Rattlin Ram said.

 

[DonS]

What Rattlin Ram said.

I presume you're referring to:

I'd be willing to bet that if you give DC a call, then your warranty expired in Oct 2005... .

I have little doubt that someone at DC might say such a thing. As you said above: "their interest is in minimizing their warranty costs".



But, I'd likely take the word of the written document delivered to me with my vehicle over what somebody at DC might say on the phone, especially if that DC rep. said something that so obviously contradicted the plain text of the document.

 

[Casey Ray]

My '02 has a 7 year 100k warranty. However I already installed a FASS II after being on my 3rd lift pump.

 

[Jack in Alaska]

back to original question

After the major deviation from my question I end up learning that someones brother in law named Phil was simple and the 100k engine warranty starts after the 3/36 ends(what are you smoking?) . Now back to my question... ... ... ... ... .



Does anyone know how the VP44 lives with a new in-tank lift pump that idles at 10 psi and wot at 8 psi. ???



PLEASE just an answer to my simple question.

 

[Jeff Knight]

I don't know if the in tank pump has been in use long enough. I have one in my truck. My pressure is 8-9 at idle and i can pull it to 0. I'll let you know if mine goes south. Hope this helps. Jeff

 

[nps]

Does anyone know how the VP44 lives with a new in-tank lift pump that idles at 10 psi and wot at 8 psi. ???



PLEASE just an answer to my simple question.

I thought I did in my first post. To repeat, Industrial Injection has posted on these threads multiple times that Bosch, the designer of the system, has told II that a minimum of 7 psi is needed to prevent excessive diaphragm deflection and eventual diaphragm rupture. Also note that there are other failure modes (lubrication and heat are two that come to mind) that may be indirectly affected by pressure, but the diaphragm failure is the only one that has been directly linked to a specific inlet psi IIRC.



If you have 8, you're good but on the edge. If you can pull it down to 0 like most with the in-tank pump, then you may want to give your pump some help with a frame mounted pusher. The Carter 4600 is a good choice - adds 8 psi to the mix, and seems more reliable than the 14 psi 4601 version.



Please note that the preceeding is independent of your 136/8 Cummins Engine warranty. :-laf

 

[DonS]

I hope the other posters have answered your question (and it seems the answer is "we don't have an answer yet, apart from the pressure and/or flow requirements of the VP44").



I don't mean to hijack your thread with the warranty discussion. However...

I end up learning that ... the 100k engine warranty starts after the 3/36 ends(what are you smoking?) .

Apparently, something that allows me to parse a simple English sentence as it appears in my warranty booklet. From section 2. 6 Cummins Diesel Engine Limited Warranty, part A When It Begins:

If your truck is equipped with a Cummins Diesel Engine, the Cummins Diesel Engine Limited Warranty begins at the end of the 3/36 Basic Warranty period, and covers the cost of repairing those parts of your truck engine listed that are defective in materials, workmanship, or factory preparation. (emphasis added)​

Some have suggested that my engine warranty really started when I took delivery, and "begins" in the quoted text above somehow means "continues, though the clock started ticking at delivery". That is, "begins" in section 2. 6 of my booklet has a different meaning than "begins" in section 2. 1. Those who have made such suggestions haven't yet provided any evidence or reasoning for their claims, other than saying I should perhaps call DC for their opinion (though it's also acknowledged that DC's interest is in avoiding warranty expenditures).



I'm not sure why DC chose to include such language in my warranty booklet. Perhaps their lawyers were otherwise occupied when that text was written, and someone of lesser literacy had assumed their warranty-writing duties. In any case, the text means what it says and does not mean what it does not say (basic rules of construction).



Here are my reasons for asserting that my 5/100 engine warranty starts when my 3/36 warranty ends (that is, my 5/100 "clock" started ticking in Oct 2003, 36 months after delivery but when I was under 36,000 miles):

1. The 3/36 warranty begins when I take delivery (2. 1 D). "Begins" means that we start counting time and mileage at the specified event (delivery). This warranty ends after 36 months or 36,000 miles on the odometer (2. 1 E). We've now specified the points at which the 3/36 warranty "begins" and "ends". (The "36,000 miles on the odometer" limit as listed in my booklet is somewhat ambiguous. It's not clear whether it means an absolute 36,000 miles, or 36,000 miles after I take delivery. )
   
2. In sections 2. 2 B, 2. 3 B, 2. 4, and 2. 5 B, various other warranties are said to begin when the 3/36 warranty begins (these sections of the booklet explicitly reference 2. 1 D).
   
3. In section 2. 6 A, the 5/100 engine warranty is said to begin at the end of the 3/36 warranty. DC defined the "end" of the 3/36 warranty in 2. 1 E, and has now tied the beginning of the 5/100 warranty to that event. "Begins", absent any other definition, must have the same meaning as in 2. 1 D - that is, we start counting the time/mileage from the specified event. For the 5/100 engine warranty, the specified event is the end of the 3/36 warranty.
   
4. Clearly, DC was able to, and did, tie the beginnings of several warranties to the "delivery" event - one warranty explicitly, and 4 others by reference. Had they wished to tie the 5/100 warranty to that same delivery event, it was certainly within their ability to do so. However, ...
   
5. DC explicitly tied the beginning of the 5/100 warranty to a different event - the "end" of the 3/36 warranty period. They explicitly defined this event in 2. 1 E.
   
6. Since DC did not, though they were able to, tie the beginning of the 5/100 warranty to the start of the 3/36 warranty, and instead chose to explicitly tie it to the end of the 3/36 warranty, they surely must have intended to tie it to the end of the 3/36 warranty.
   
7. Arguments that the 5/100 warranty overlaps the 3/36 warranty, and the two both start at delivery, are not supported by the text of my warranty booklet. Nowhere in the text of my warranty booklet is it stated that the time or mileage limits of the 5/100 engine warranty are measured from delivery.
   

Any logical discussions that refute the position described above are certainly welcome. Of course, such discussions must be restricted to either the text of my warranty booklet (any parts of which I can make available upon request) or arbitration/court results that have referenced a warranty booklet like mine. These discussions shouldn't merely assert "that's probably not what DC would say" - as DC's opinion wouldn't necessarily be the final word in a protracted dispute.

 

[BBowers]

You go get em! I am glad somebody is fighting for the comsumers!

 

[TCluff]

Got a new VP and in tank pump bout a year ago! With only an edge EZ and 25k miles i am now in the market for another VP44!#@$%!

 

[ctingler]

I got 92. 000 miles ,. and now just putting it in DC garage . for a new lift pump,VP44 pump,and power steering pump. how about this one all at one time. all covered under warranty