Engine/Transmission (1998.5 - 2002) VP44 Questions, Again.

[RJWEST]

Time for a VP44 ( code and dead pedal with Smarty, not as bad on stock).



So , I am reluctant to do the replace myself, ( to old ),

Made several calls to local Diesel shops,

1 Quote; 1750, Rebuilt pump from Orlando Florida, Owner says they do

all the Florida pumps, OK, So



Next shop I stop by I am surprised to find they have a Bosch test stand and do there own Pumps, with rebuilt Bosch housings, Owner shows me shop and

pumps he has rebuilt, I ask him about So & Ho pumps, He looks at me

and says there all same, 1 for Dodges and 1 for freightliners. .

PN's 027 & 029 , now i'm confused... So I look up pn's.

I need a 028 ( 02 std shift ) correct????

Now, 2 shops, and conflicting info< 1 Guy does not know 028 pumps, other

says only 1 place to get pumps in florida... . Does not make me feel confident

in either option.



So, started rethinking doing it myself,

Another question, to get the gear pressed lose from the IP,

how do you get in there to work? I know to pull the breather, but

do you remove the fan & radiator shroud to get at the pump? Seems tight to

work in there, Also, The throttle thing on top has to come off, correct.



Just wish I could find a place close to JAX Florida that I had confidence in,

Previous experience in FL, with mechanics , has not been to good,,



I did call the guy in Altomonte springs, he seemed most knowledgeable,

but 110 miles away. .



Another question; Another diesel rebuider tells me Bosch rebuilds are all

" overseas " rebuilds . ??? US rebuilds are better ????



Ain't nothing easy anymore...



Also, Would a NEW pump be better than a rebuilt, Cummins says they are available, but takes a month to get it ?????



Really confused now... .

 

[rweis]

Well, When, not if, my VP44 dies:



Pump comes from Southeast Power Systems, or Industrial Injection, or Scheid Diesel, or BD, or Blue Chip, or one of the MAJOR rebuilders. No super hp, no "speciality doda", just what came on the engine orgionally. You get what you pay for and one of the pump rebuilders has a pump that is about $1800 and I would bet not only "meets specs", but goes well beyond "specs". Most of the pumps are about $1000 +-.



Then, print out all the how to get it off and on listings you can find. Watch the thread video here on TDR about how to do it a couple of times. Find / buy a VP44 gear puller (1 of the guys that comes might have one).



Go to the southeast club section and start coordinating a date that a couple of us can meet at your house to do it. You provide the sandwich ring from Publix and non alcoholic drinks until the job is done, then we celebrate with the brew of choice.



Many people have written on how to do it, have done it, have videos on it, and we should be able to do the same.



I have never done it but would jump at the chance to get with some others and figuer it out so when mine dumps ... ... ... ... .



We can call it a "2 day truck meet" so the wives will understand and have a better idea of what they think it will be. If we need sleeping accomodations I'll pull my 5er up and have enough floor space for about 4 guys (I can visualize 4 guys under the hood at one time, lol). We can also see what others have done with their trucks that we might think about for our own truck.



You coordinate it, we'll all learn from it.



Bob Weis



BTW There is a meet at the paint ball range on 75 down by Ocala on 1 Sept. Some of the guys on DTR get together there a couple of times a year. GREAT food, smoked ribs that literally melt on the plate.

 

[mhenon]

RJWEST... . I would jump all over that offer if I were you.

Mike

 

[RJWEST]

Really gotta think about this, Problem, was suposed to be in Ind last week.

Thanks for the Idea Bob & the offer.
from what I read of your posts I don't think you would have a problem doing the job. , I was thinking the same about learning how, But at 68, bending over for
8 hours is a little tuff.
been studying the process though , Just so darned hot in Florida...

I guess first decission is where to buy IP...
And Thanks for the encouragement...

Oh! , good news,not, batteries DEAD, original, guess it's time to change those THAT I CAN DO, I think...

 

[Missouri Mule]

Instructions for vp44 pump in issue 51 in Have Ram Will Travel.



Southeast Power Systems I believe have shops in Tampa, Orlando, Daytona. They used be called something else but changed there name. I believe Pogo Dually(Dick Floyd President of the Central Florida Rams) will know the phone no. and address to the Daytona one.

 

[rweis]

Well, I'm 61, and I doubt it will take 8 hours, could, but mounting bracket (3 bolts), injector lines (6 fittings), bolts to the back of the gear case (4), oil breather, gear puller (extra time here), out, then reverse. I don't bend over when I work in my engine compartment. I have a "fender blanket" and lay it over the engine and I climb in get comfey and lay on that. MUCH easier on the back. Wife helps with getting which wrench to me if I forgot to bring one up to start with. I also carry ALL my tools in tool boxes in the truck bed in anticipation of full time RVing one day. Anyway ...



SE Power use to be Stewart Diesel then the employees bought it and changed the name. There are 5 shops in FL.



The Southeast Power web site se-power.com has all the numbers of all the locations. They can do it if you want them to do it. I have dealt with Mike Franke the service manager of the Tampa store for about 5 years and everything has been absolutely right on and on the up and up. I would trust them with mine, and I don't trust anybody with mine (DC changed oil in it once (first time) and DC changed the VP44 under warrantee once).



The batteries I would go to WalMart, 65SS I think about $65 + tax + core. I have an extra core if you need it. Interstate battery, 3 year total replacement, something like 9 years prorated. I just bought our CTD truck battery for my 5er so I carry an extra truck battery when I RV.



I bet for a bunch of old coggers we can do this



Bob Weis

 

[RJWEST]

Thanks for the support Bob,

The cummins shop here in JAX , I think that is a South East power, have to check... Just want to get the darn thing fixed, and back on the road, "
" Out of Florida " to Hot...

Oh, my plan is to get it done and send the Bill to Chrylser , as an Emergency Repair, under the 7/100k warrenty after 3/36...

I have dealt with the Dealers here over this, NO way, was there comment.
PLUS, I HATE DEALERS !!!!!!!!

 

[rweis]

Understand the comment on dealers: Soap Box follows:









I wanted to change my diff 3. 54 - 4. 10, 80k miles. Dealer wants $2500. Local machinest $40 / hr labor + parts, fine. Local machinest opens it up and the carrier bearing had spun in the race because it was not preloaded correctly. I take carrier to dealer for exchange, - no way. "If we do not do the work, we will not have anything to do with it. " OK, then how about I buy a new carier from you (dealer) and you pay the dealer cost and I will pay the rest of the over the counter cost. No way, again. OK, we get a non Dodge carrier and rebuild the new gears. Total cost $1500. Even if were $3000, I TRUST the machinest that it will be the absolute best it can be.



What would happen if I was on the road and had a failure, and yes I have the extended warrantee to 100k from same dealer. They said they would recommend DIS-approval to the warrantee company because they did not do the work.



So unless I have a mechanical failure within 50 miles of where I live the local dealer "will have nothing to do with it".



Now, next time you are at WalMart KMart count the number of US trucks and the number of non US mfg trucks. When a non US mfg makes a 1 ton dullie the US mfg's are in real trouble, they are already getting taken in the 1/2 ton market.



Not because we can not make a truck that works, because the after sale system is so poor and lacks trust which is a basic criteria of marketing. "Let the buyer beware" ie know who you can TRUST.



If the "marketing" would ask what we want instead of what they think we want and then see IF it sells. If you could order engine modifications (higher hp injectors, different turbos, larger exhaust, oversized cooling, super built transmissions, simple to repair mounting locations, overdesigned wiring, fluid systems that are bullet proof (transmission fluid, fuel) and designed to not be right at the max limit under normal conditions. Order a minimal truck, or a 50% overbuilt truck. I would pay more if I knew it would last 500k and I could order the power I want instead of chosing it from a list they offer.



Why do more VP44's "die" in the summer? Hummmmm, heat?



No, now we get engine compartments that you have no way to get to anything, poor cooling. Filters that only access from the bottom. Check engine lights that should then tell you what the problem is and how severe it is, not dump it to limp mode. My wife's van, she did not get the fuel cap tight, throws a CEL. "CEL", "Your fuel cap is loose, please tighten" or "CEL # 01169 check manual for description".



ah well, thanks for letting me vent, but we are losing another industry due to overseas competition and I hate to see that happen.



I do love my Cummins though and I have been successful at fixing anything Dodge.



I have the same propensity for dealers! Total LACK of TRUST, and that's a real shame.



Bob Weis

 

[RJWEST]

Agree, if Japan ever makes a Diesel truck, it would sure put a dent in US sales.

I don't buy new anymore, mostly because I just don't want the hassle of the
Dealerships, Won't be so bad if they honored the warrenties, rather than
trying to find a way to pad the bill. My impression is, Chrylser is the worst of
the big 3...

Was down at the Cruise in last Sat, there was an old chev truck with a six cylinder, Forgot how simple they were back than... .

anyway, back to the VP, seems to be ok in stock program, but i'm sure
just a matter of time, May head out to Indiana and just take my chances.
maybe it will die in front of a good Diesel shop... Yea right...

Did ask Cummins shop in JAX for price , thought they would be high, But. !!.
Worse than Dodge, 2900$
I asked shop rate : 96 an hour, I told him the pump was 1400, correct,
He says yes, Ok I said, than you need 15 hours to change the pump. .
He says, ya but we have to install a filter and, I cut him off and asked him
how long it takes to change a 10$ filter, 10 minutes???
Than he says, that is the bill for the last job we did , . .

Told him he was trying to rape me.
lots of silence, end of conversation... .

On the up side, New shocks are in, And new batteries, 125$ for 2,
Dead short in 1 cell, been starting hard for the last couple of weeks, thought it was the IP... ? maybe that was causing p0216, doubt it... .

Ron West,,

 

[rweis]

I still know that Publix makes sandwich rings, and my RV can sleep 4 (2 on the floor, 1 up front, 1 on the sofa). THE key to TDR guys doing it is the pump price is the same, but we work for the fun of it to help out another TDR guy and a beverage of choice (cheap labor).



There was a thread inthe last 2 weeks and if I remember it right: If I do not get this right some one correct me:



P0216 is from the advance piston actual position and the requested angular rotation of the advance cam NOT in agreement for more than 5 seconds.



Generally, not enough intermediate pressure to operate the advance piston (not enough volume or pressure feeding the fuel to the VP44 vane pump. BUT can also be from not enough lubricity under hot conditions (thinner fuel) to fully move the advance piston to the correct position. BUT can also be from stickyness in the advance piston bore from scoreing or foreign material buildup. BUT can also be from a damaged diaphram (cracked?) not able to develop sufficient pressure on the high side due to the damage. BUT ?????



I do not know IF the low voltage (dead cell) would have anything to do with malfunctioning VP44, BUT certainly could, the solenoid tolerances are unbelievably small and it requires heavy amperage to operate. Poor voltage could certainly be a player. It IS an ELECTRONICALLY controlled pump.



Run it and see what happens. Scheid's Diesel is in Indiana, Layaffete and another city, but they do VP44's really well I think.



Bob Weis

 

[RSimmons]

Scheid told me they charge 240 bucks to install a VP44 and takes about 3 hours. I did my own in about 4 and installed a set of RV275 injectors at the same time. With a few right tools (namely 3/8 swivel head ratchet and 19mm crows foot) , it is a fairly simple job.

 

[monkeyman]

I replaced mine, more trouble taking off injector lines than anything else. I super glued key way in as it is common for them to fall out when putting pump back in. To me its harder to change vaccum pump than VP.
Rick

 

[randrade]

I think there is a place called Midwest fuel injectiion that sells them for something like 1080 ish. wont charge core for up to 30 days. Something to check as I am also in need of one

 

[RJWEST]

Thanks all,

Great info Bob, That is what I was looking for, Starting to understand
the workings of the pump. Interesting that the truck never had any power
until 1900 rpm than came on much stronger( is this a sign of weak pump?)?
, Smarty made a big differance. but the p0216 comes back very quickly, So I think the smarty wants more advance before the pressure is built up enough to advance the cam ring. Kinda makes sense,
Bob Wagner replied that the Smarty will find weak pumps, Really sounds like my case...

Yes, the BIG sandwich is in this post, still an option, maybe I should save that for when I need a Engine rebuild ??? Kidding...

I think I'm just gonna run it in to the local bosch rebuilder,

I had called shied diesel, but there are in the " Big event" cycle. Sounds like
they are one of the best... ...

Sorry about all the procrasting ? on my part... Just trying to make a good decision. They seem to be hard to come by lately. .

 

[rweis]

There is a book on Bosch injection pumps (all of them, mechanical, electronic, future ideas). It goes through EXACTELY what the various parts do and how they play and tolerances and problems etc.



Sort of Short version:

Fuel is delivered to the VP44 vane pump (also called the intermediate pump). The vane pump is lobed and depends on the lp to fill the lobe ie enough psi and volume to FILL it (not too little psi / vol, not to much psi / vol). Then the vane rotates and pressurizes the fuel to I think like 150 - 300 psi. This intermediate psi is what moves the advance system, and charges the high pressure rotary pump pistons.



Then the pump rotor rotates and pressurizes the pistons until they align with the output port and the pressurized fuel starts toward the injector lines and starts to raise the pressure until the injector pop pressure is reached and fuel starts to flow into the cylinders. The PSG (VP44 computer chip) calculates how long to let the fuel run into the cylinder then collapses the pressure and sends the remaining fuel to the high pressure side of the diaphram to be used as feed fuel on the next event, the injectors seat, the return overflow valve discharges some of the fuel back to the tank (cooling fuel). And the rotor rotates to the next cylinder and it starts all over again.



The PSG functions at like 10's of 1000's of calculations a second and is supposedly why it HAS to be part of the VP44. The time it takes a electrical signal to travel like 3 feet (@186,000 MILES a second) is to much time for the PSG to be mounted somewhere else other than the VP44 body.



The AMPERAGE to operate the fuel charge solenoid is like 10 AMPS for like . 00001 of a second (maybe less). Every time the pistons need charging it has to operate.



That is why MAYBE with a bad battery you got the 0216 code.



Because the PSG is calculating so fast and the rotary pump is sooooo precise and it all has to happen perfectly that anything even slightly slightly wrong gets the error in calculating code. Hence often the 0216's happen more and more as the xxx fails more and more until it will not pump at all. Sometimes it is a catastrophic failure and you get the 0216 and it is totally dead.



Anything that has to do with the calculations or the speed of the calculations can cause it. I had a VP44 that would only 0216 over 3k rpm even though lubricity additive but the psi was a little low. I think HEAT has A LOT to do with it (tighter fitting parts, not moving as easily ie draging, generating more heat). That is why I have taken on the experimentation of cooling the VP44 return fuel, so the input fuel is NO MORE than 120* (Bosch limit is 160*) to keep internal part expansion to a minimum and mechanical tolerances to a maximum so the parts fit temperature can be as much toward test stand calibration "normal" as possible. Also why I try to hit exactely 13. 5 psi which is test stand calibration psi.



This VP44 is more than psi ie:



The XXXX that takes air out of the fuel fluid, the bypass return systems now, the use of much bigger fuel filters at smaller um, water seperator filters, cooling the fuel, the XXXX fuel pumps that deliver huge available volumes of fuel vs the OEM lp, using AN-6 & AN-8 lines, all this stuff to keep the VP44 healthy. IT IS A SYSTEM not just an injector pump.



In the summer Scheid Diesel does shows, events, racing?, and are fairly busy is what they were trying to say, ie their folks on the road at events.



Good luck with it, let us know which direction to point,



Bob Weis

 

[RJWEST]

Thanks for the great info, gotta print that out... . and your patience with
us 1st time Cummins owners,

Decided to take truck to local Bosch rebuilder, Had spoke to him before,
after meet and another conversation, seemed worth a try... .
1616$ total R&R and rebuild of my pump with a bosch reman case. .
Whatever that means, Told me he would give me a detailed list of defects...
So, the learning process continues,

Hope to have it back by Thur the latest,

I here you on the Fuel system, I have always added a aftermarket
filter/water seperator to my previous GM diesels... plus an additional
in line LP, The add on water seperator would trap water, not much,
like a 1/2 to 1 teaspoon over time... The OEM filter ( prior to filter add )never showed any water, I think it is pushed through into the IP... .

Tryed a series LP on my truck last week, lost fuel pressure on hard exceleration. probably to small a pump.

I would like to add a perma cool filter, by the tank, but have not solved the LP problem, I do not know how the Wallboro works, per water seperator function...
Thought of installing a header tank ( few gallons ) and recirculating fuel
through it back to the tank. ( filtering and cooling ). I would think that the
header tank would provide the pri LP a short/big supply of fuel for high demand periods,,,

But, thats after I get back from Ind. Hope i'm back by the Fl meet,
really would like to meet all the Sandwich people... ...

Thanks again. .

 

[rweis]

I think the reman case means you get the STEEL advance piston bore. The brass one's did not work out too well.



I would like you to post the list of defects. That should be interesting.



Guys seem to like the Walbro pumps. They seem to be holding up well.



1 Sep at the paint ball range on I75 west side.



Bob Weis



ps: My first CTD too, and I love it, only 913,000 miles to go.

 

[RJWEST]

Bob , I have gone through the long post on yours and Gary's process of
installing upgrades for cooling, I found them extremly interesting.

That is where I got the direction for fuel feed improvements... . just have to get to it.

Will keep you posted on the rebuild. Hope he does as he stated and saves the bad parts. Maybe some pisc's

Thought: seems to be more vp44 fails lately, ? new fuel?
or just the IP's getting into the failure range,, I think Bosch really
screwed up with the brass sleeve, The one I saw was " BLACK " and had a wear mark that was not concentric. like an hourglass shape...

? Form letter to Bosch from all members that experienced IP fail.

 

[RJWEST]

OK, Time to post results: VP44 IP Rebuilt... .

2500 miles with Rebuilt pump and Smarty on Fuel Saver program.
NO, P0216, NO DEAD PEDAL. .

Problem fixed, Bad VP44 as suspected and confirmed by all of you.
Thanks All !!!!!!

 

[rweis]

Didn't you say at the meet that the advance piston and sleeve sleeve was covered with a black scale? ever decide what the scale was?



Bob Weis