VP44 shutdown cooling

[dodgedieselguy]

Hi Guys,
Here's a new product under development. Let me know what you think.

NEW PRODUCT ANNOUNCEMENT

Blue Chip is working on a product that we feel will extend the service
life expectancy of the VP44 injection pump. Over 12 plus years of "REAL
WORLD' experience has made us truly believe heat is what is killing the computers on the top of these injection pumps. As we KNOW the
Computers are the most common VP pump problem causing Dead
Pedal, Hard Start Hot and Erratic ldle complaints, we are addressing the
heat problem. We have recently discovered that the hottest these pumps get is 2O minutes after the engine is shut off! The reason this happens is because the lift pump shuts off when the engine shuts off and the return fuel going to the fuel tank that normally cools the heat sink on the bottom of the computer, stops cooling the computer! Latent heat from the engine “Hot Soaks" the injection pump computer and allows it to reach temperatures that compromise the lead free solder that is used to mechanically and electrically connect the components to the circuit board in the computer. We have developed a smart product to address this issue, that does NOT compromise the safety features of how the ECM runs the lift pump and shuts it off in an accident. Our VP44 Pump Saver will safely run the lift pump after the engine is shut off, when the temperature of the return fuel is too high, until the temperature of the return fuel cools down to a predetermined temperature. We are extremely confident this will prevent the solder from getting crystalline from too high a heat or too many heat cycles. We truly believe bad solder joints is what is causing the components on the circuit board to have intermittent electrical connections, causing all the drivability issues previously mentioned.
We are looking for a few people to beta test this product before we
start selling it to the public. We are looking for people who have had
really high repeat computer failure rates and or live and work their
trucks in hot parts of the country. lf you enjoy increased horsepower
from a "Programmer" type power enhancement device, you are also
welcome as they create more heat in the computer. As a beta tester we will want you to install this product and report to us via email, weekly, with information stored in the Blue Chip VP44 Pump Saver. We will charge beta testers up front about $300 for the product, as that is what we think the final price will be for the production units and if the tester chooses to return it after the test period we will refund the entire cost. lf you are interested in this project or have any input about this project please email us at -- email address removed --
Hoping to help VP44's owners, Chip Fisher

 

[klcammie]

Sounds like a great idea. will be instrested in see the results.

 

[dodgedieselguy]

Good news bad news

Hello Readers,

This is an update on our homework on our cooling project for the VP44 after the engine is shut off.

The short story is like this. There wasn't much of a response on our website to justify all the research and development and testing that would be necessary, as safety was a big issue. The problem here is what would happen if the lift pump just ran for 20 or so minutes automatically every time the key was shut off? If the truck caught fire in a wreck and the lift pump kept running until the fireman cut the battery cable, that would be a sure lawsuit for BCDP, eh? So, we did figure that out, at vast time and expense, but the next hurdle was that we discovered there is no return fuel unless the shaft of the pump is turning. We could modify our housings to make that happen, but that didn't do everyone that has a good pump now, any good because they couldn't do the retrofit in their back yard. We have figured that one out too, but really don't have much ambition to finish this project because of the price required to make this product a safe product and demand just doesn't seem to be there.

So, this thread is just the place to hear how much you guys out there might be willing to spend for this product, and how many think it is worth a gamble, not just for BCDP but for the end user, to see if it works in the long run.

The ball is in your court now guys, Chip Fisher, owner of BCDP

 

[HHhuntitall]

Hmm, an additional machined housing, more fuel pumped, emergency shutoff..... May I pose a question? Why not move the electronics? How hard is it to build a wired interface that allows the computer to be moved off the pump, to, say, the fender, firewall, or inside the cab? What all is involved with that, and is it more economically feasible?



I'm thoroughly convinced you are correct in stating heat kills the electronics. From what I've seen, I had those same ideas before I began reading some of your writings, and I'm sure you have more experience than I do... ... . but moving the electronics would remove the need for dissapating so much heat from the pump after shut down, and greatly reduce any heat during towing, especially if installed in cab... ...

 

[Moe]

vp44

Perfect idea. It could be done in the backyard by the owner. Just sell the new electronics and software patch and leave the old electronics on the vp44. Any new vp44s could be sold with the FIX already done. Moe

 

[JohnBoy5]

i have also thought about moving the computer for the vp-44, i would love to just get a new computer and the stuff to relocate it somewhere either in the cab or on the fender...

 

[Bob4x4]

Relocating has been done for years on the GM 6. 5 and not too much money involved.

I think Blue chip is not serious about helping owners so much as making a buck. I have never seen a company charge a customer to have his truck test an unproven proto type... ... ... . sad

 

[HHhuntitall]

Relocating has been done for years on the GM 6. 5 and not too much money involved.

I think Blue chip is not serious about helping owners so much as making a buck. I have never seen a company charge a customer to have his truck test an unproven proto type... ... ... . sad

Well, in his defense, it does take money to make things..... and a smaller company like his can't eat the expenses like BD, Bullydog, or MSD. I think if you're putting 40-50k a year or more on your truck and your pump is covered unconditionally, that's pretty good. And I see lots of people pay for prototypes to be built, and then the manufacturer gets the patent. Ed Iskenderian did that for years for my dad, but my dad designed him camshafts, so it worked good for both of them. I'm sure my dad could have patented the designs himself, but then he'd have had to pay for the grinding and manufacture himself..... he couldn't do that. Joe Smith did that for him, too, building and designing chassis suspensions and body designs. But Dodge was a different story. They gave him heads, cranks, and intakes, and wrote it off as a tax deduction. Not that they were very liberal in their gifting... ... but free is free. If you don't like it, send it back, and it doesn't cost you..... I like the idea, and my curiosity drives me to be interested, but first, I don't have time to document it properly, and secondly, I don't have any 24v's I bash on regularly..... yet... . But I do think a remote electronic device would be better, if possible, than the shut down fuel pumping. I don't think that in my part of the world it would be very feasible, especially with ambient temperature being well over 100* the last few months..... after a long drive, the fuel in the tank will already be hot from cycling..... I could be wrong, I'm not an expert, there. I just fix the broken trucks, and depend on guys like Chip to fix the parts I can't. I'd really love for him to develop an all mechanical pump that ignores the fuel changes... but doesn't set codes... . that'd be a real winner!!



Heck, just fixing the ones we already have to run 7-800k would be a vast improvement!!

 

[dodgedieselguy]

Answers to recent posts

We have tried to remote mount the computer with no luck, and at vast expense trying. There are 14 wires that need to be extended and two of them would have to become 10 gauge to carry the current, the rest would have to be shielded and for sure it would not be possible to do the retrofit in the field, as it would involve soldering and removing the pump from the truck. We would have to buy an expensive pump harness plug and mold a special mating unit at a cost of about $20,000, to make the extension cord required, so it really isn't feasible financially or practically. We would love to have a better pump/computer set up, but the modification cost is not reasonable, and as a previous participant said, it WOULD be testing at the customer's expense in the real world and apparently he feels that isn't right. We respond to that statement by saying we are only trying to get feedback from the potential buyers and he proves they typically aren't willing to help financially. Please note that we are just being honest about how the process MIGHT happen.



We also have tried cooling plates like those used in big computers, to no avail, only to be told by their engineers that the reason it didn't work was because there wasn't enough temperature differential between the pump and ambient air around the engine. . One more expensive lesson.



SO,,,, if someone comes up with a simple affordable practical solution, thoroughly tested and proven, and by backed by product liability insurance, guaranteed to work, guaranteed for the life of the truck, easily installed by the back yard mechanic, with the pump in the truck, for less than $23. 00, please let us know and we'll market it for you!



In fact why don't one of you smart guys design it, test it, guarantee it, patent it, sell it, and you can become a millionaire like we supposedly are, and we will watch with true admiration! Or,,,,why hasn't this been done already?



Meanwhile we will monitor this thread for more feedback from the many sides of the fence, as we are not millionaires and a small company only testing the waters here. Thanks TDR for the opportunity and the space.

 

[SHobbs]

If the truck is in an accident does anything cut off the factory l. p set up? If so, can that be tapped into to shut down the cooler? If there is not anything like that then why be concerned, the factory set up would just keep pumping anyway if a collision happened. What about an inertia switch or what ever the air bags use? Just tossing ideas.

 

[HHhuntitall]

We have tried to remote mount the computer with no luck, and at vast expense trying. There are 14 wires that need to be extended and two of them would have to become 10 gauge to carry the current, the rest would have to be shielded and for sure it would not be possible to do the retrofit in the field, as it would involve soldering and removing the pump from the truck. We would have to buy an expensive pump harness plug and mold a special mating unit at a cost of about $20,000, to make the extension cord required, so it really isn't feasible financially or practically. We would love to have a better pump/computer set up, but the modification cost is not reasonable, and as a previous participant said, it WOULD be testing at the customer's expense in the real world and apparently he feels that isn't right. We respond to that statement by saying we are only trying to get feedback from the potential buyers and he proves they typically aren't willing to help financially. Please note that we are just being honest about how the process MIGHT happen.

Well, that was why I asked about the wire loom extension. I presumed it was not an easy thing, or it would have already been done..... but I didn't know... . had to ask.

SO,,,, if someone comes up with a simple affordable practical solution, thoroughly tested and proven, and by backed by product liability insurance, guaranteed to work, guaranteed for the life of the truck, easily installed by the back yard mechanic, with the pump in the truck, for less than $23. 00, please let us know and we'll market it for you!



In fact why don't one of you smart guys design it, test it, guarantee it, patent it, sell it, and you can become a millionaire like we supposedly are, and we will watch with true admiration! Or,,,,why hasn't this been done already?

OUCH! Ok. I was just asking questions!!! Take it easy!



I'd love to come up with a viable solution, other than pulling the cam and accessory drive and changing the drive housing and using a P7100 style pump with custom lines... ...



Truthfully, you've taught me more about the VP through your website and following your conversations here than I have learned anywhere else, so I openly am grateful for the knowledge... . thanks. But as a machinist and mechanic, I also understand what you have to undertake just to build a new housing for these injection pumps... . I'd hate to have to write and debug the CNC program!!!! #@$%! That is partially why I didn't think it was such a viable idea... . which you already knew..... And I'll agree, I don't think the fuel running after key shutdown is a good idea..... which brings me to another question... . Is the fuel pump killed by airbag deployment in the factory program and wiring? I would think it would be..... but I've never wrecked a 24v..... so far... . I'm off to research my own question!

 

[dclassens]

your original post states "recently discovered that the hottest these pumps get is 2O minutes after the engine is shut off!"



What kind of temps are we talking? what is the pump temp while operating and what does the temp spike to after shut down. If you would be willing to give this data up maybe we can help with a cooling solution.



PS~I think you guys do EXCELLENT work!!

 

[dodgedieselguy]

The way the safety system works is,,,,,,,,when the key is turned on, the lift pump operates for 4 seconds to prime the IP. When the starter is engaged it runs for 25 seconds and when the ECM sees idle rpm it runs continuously. When it sees less than idle speed it shuts it off.
The temperatures we have recorded are anywhere from 150 -200 degrees, after shutoff. The temps during operation are directly related to outside temp AND how much fuel is left in the tank. The important thing is temperature differential, which determines how fast the cooling process takes.
I've answered your questions here, now how about you guys answer the ones I have asked here!
Thanks

 

[JMetzger]

I don't have an answer, wish I did. You guys do a great job at trying to fix a problem that Dodge, Cummins & or Bosch should have been forced to fix. To me it is a serious & very expensive problem. Keep up the good work.

 

[HHhuntitall]

Hello Readers,

So, this thread is just the place to hear how much you guys out there might be willing to spend for this product, and how many think it is worth a gamble, not just for BCDP but for the end user, to see if it works in the long run.

The ball is in your court now guys, Chip Fisher, owner of BCDP

I really did get off your original subject... . my apologies, I tend to do that.



I'm not sure what to tell you there. A pump from a Bosch dealer runs close to $1000 wholesale. We both know what it is and the gamble you take with it. Although, if a new housing were to cost twice that, I'd think that's going to be too much. Now, at an additional $3-400, it seems reasonable to me, if it's going to run twice as long. I've seen how your pumps tend to perform better than most Bosch reman's, and hear a lot of good things about their longetivity. I currently don't run but two 24v engines, mostly because I feel I can't trust them. If a more viable solution could be found, I'm interested. Typically, most of my fleet trucks run offroad in pastures, slow speeds, lots of dust, heat, etc... . basically, the only worst conditions on the planet are in a farm tractor, where it's fully loaded at all times. In my shop, I see a lot of different trucks, but the repeated failure in the 24v is almost depressing, albiet good for business. What kind of price are you thinking?

 

[dclassens]

Chip, keep up the good work! You seem to be the only guy around who keeps focusing on the 24-valve engines. Most performance companies moved on long ago when the common rail jump into the market. As a ASE master tech in both truck and auto, I have had my fair share of head scratchers trying to make a manufactures setup a little more reliable.



Here is what I have thought over, even though I am sure your group has gone over these ideas. I think you have three option for cooling on a dodge ram.

1. Engine coolant - somehow use coolant to cool the housing - still in the 200 deg range, not much improvement.

2. Freon from the A/C system - somehow route coolant lines, a very costly and difficult process.

3. Fuel - Already hooked up and located far away from the under hood heat.



I know you had this idea in mind and then moved away because of liability.

I am not sure yet how to SAFELY design an injection pump cooling system with fuel but I think if you refocus on this, it is the best option.

Any feedback would be great, maybe some more discussion of what you had come up with other than allowing the lift pump to run longer.

 

[dclassens]

I also really like the cooling plate idea. I used an old amp cooling plate one time on a 6. 5 diesel PMD. It was then remounted away from the intake and on the fire wall and according to the owner it never had another problem.

 

[Silver_Ram]

Has any tested fuel line coolers, to see if that makes a difference. Chevy uses them on the return line for the Duramax. I realize the truck has to be moving for it too work, but if the fuel is cooler, maybe the heat soak problem could be less??